You answered your own question and I'm pretty sure you don't even know it. smh
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2 Peter 2:1 shows Jesus died for the non-elect
- Thread starter ICHTHUS
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Don't knock it till you try it. Nothing quite terrifying then a bird landing on your shoulder while your thinking of God, nothing quite relieving when said bird poops on your shoulder too.
Proverbs 12:10 “Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.”
Genesis 9
8Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9“Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11“I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12God said, “This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.14“It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16“When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”17And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”
Psalm 145:9-10 The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.
Psalm 145:15-17 The eyes of all creatures look to you,and you give them their food at the proper time. You open your hand, and you satisfy the desire of every living thing. The Lord is fair in all his ways and faithful in everything he does.
Psalm 136:25 He gives food to every creature. His love endures forever.
Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
Psalm 147:9 He giveth to the beast his food, and to the young ravens which cry.
Matthew 10 29“Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yetnot one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30“But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31“So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
Isaiah 11
6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
Matthew 6:26 “Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?”
LOL
Don't be ridiculous. "Without a doubt?" Every major published English Version from Wycliff to today reads the same.
Wycliff: Acts 13:48 And heathen men heard, and joyed, and glorified the word of the Lord; and believed, as many as were before-ordained to everlasting life.
ESV: Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
LV: Acts 13:48 audientes autem gentes gavisae sunt et glorificabant verbum Domini et crediderunt quotquot erant praeordinati ad vitam aeternam.
LV translated to English: as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
It's a passive, perfect, participle. Get over it.
I have several questions:
When Peter talked about "there WERE also false prophets among the people", who was he referring to? I've always taken this to refer to Israel, Old Testament Israel at that.
That leads me to this question: When it refers to false prophets being "bought", is it referring to Christ's redemptive act or God's deliverance of OT Israel from Egypt? (Deut. 32:6)
Seeing that 2 Peter 2:1 is comparing the false teachers coming into the church with the false prophets who arose in OT Israel, is it possible that Peter is saying that these false prophets are from Israel—those who were "bought" in the Exodus?
Dear Sir, thanks for sharing your views on the text in question. It is good to be open to learn always.
You speak of "Every major published English Version" as being your authority of the "passive voice" here. But, you must know that none actually say "who" does the "appointing" (ESV)? I have never said that man can save himself, or even choose to be saved in and of himself. No, salvation must be the work of God, from start to finish. But this is not the issue here. This verse has been, in not just my opinion, misused by Calvinist for their teaching of "predestination", which the Greek verb "τάσσω" never means. As I have said before, it is common knowledge for those who know Greek, that when verbs end in the same way, it is difficult to determine the "voice", and this then must be done so from the immediate passage. In the passage before us, from verses 46-48, it is evident that the Jews "considered themselves" not worthy of eternal life, and rejected the Gospel message. Interestingly it does not say that God thus considered them, which we would expect if Calvinism is true on this subject? Nor have you or anyone else addressed this problem? As the "action" of the Jews was "self", it is therefore necessary to take the "action" of those who were "glad" to hear the same message of their salvation, as also "self", and thus their "enrolling" as "τάσσω" really means, was due to the fact that they believed, what the Jews rejected.
I notice on Philippians 2:6, you say that "υπαρχων" means, "continuous, unchanging, condition", which I assume you mean that what Jesus was from all eternity, continued thereafter His Incarnation? If this be the case, then the tense of the Greek is rightly, not as defined by some as the "present", but rather the "imperfect", which is what it is used for elsewhere in the New Testament. If the usual usage does not apply here, they way can't Acts 13:48 also be different to the norm?
Speaking of taking what versions say as always giving the correct rendering of the original language. How many English versions you know, that correctly translate John 10:28, "καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα"? which literally is, "and in no wise shall they perish forever", where the force of the Greek is much stronger?
All said and done, it is apparent from what I have read on other posts, people are more interested in sticking by their pet "doctrines", regardless of whether the evidence may be against what they believe. I have read commentaries on this passage in Acts which are from the Calvinistic view, and not one has dealt with the entire passage with a fair and open mind, as none have been able to explain the fact the the Jews themselves (middle voice) rejected the Gospel, and considered themselves (again, middle voice) unworthy of eternal life. It is very clear that God did NOT so consider them, for the fact that He had Paul and Barnabas take the Gospel for their salvation to them in the first place.
Yes, exactly as you have done. All of the grammatical and versional evidence mitigates against your chosen position but you ignore it because it does not fit your presupposition.
Yes, the Jews rejected Christ in and of themselves, while the elect accept Christ by the manifold Grace of God.
As for Greek scholars who, according to you, don't know what they are talking about, just one version, the venerable old King James New Testament was translated by these men:
Dr. Richard Brett was one of the world's foremost experts in Latin, Greek, Chaldee, Arabic and Ethioptic languages.
Dr. John Harmer, Professor of Greek at Oxford was a noted linguist having mastered not only Greek, but Latin and Hebrew as well.
Dr. Lawrence Chaderton was skilled in Greek and Hebrew, and a student of the ancient Jewish writings called "The Rabbis."
Dr. Thomas Harrison was noted for his skill in Hebrew and Greek idioms.
Dr. Lancelot Andrews is said to have been completely fluent in fifteen languages, and had his private devotions in the Greek New Testament, and kept a journal of his devotions written entirely in Greek.
Dr. Henry Savile was selected to work with the group that was to translate the New Testament at Oxford. He was chosen to translate the Gospels, the Book of Acts, and the Revelation. Dr. Savile was said to be as great a mathematician as he was a Greek scholar. He was chosen to tutor Queen Elizabeth in both mathematics and Greek. Dr. Savile was not only famous for his translation of the great history of Tacitus from Latin into English, but also translated the mathematical work of Euclid on geometry from Greek into English. However, Dr. Savile was most famous for his editing and translating of the complete works of John Chrysostom, one of the most famous of the early Greek church fathers, from the Greek into English. This was a work similar in size to eight very large dictionaries!
Dr. John Bois was a New Testament translator at Cambridge. At the age of five he had read the entire Bible in Hebrew. At the age of six he could write the Hebrew language in "a fair and elegant" hand. He was equally skilled in Greek. He was one of the twelve, two from each committee, who were sent to make the final revision at Stationer's Hall in London. On top of all of his other duties, he was the secretary for the final revision committee, taking notes on all of the meetings. It is largely through his notes that we have knowledge of the inner workings of the committee in this day and age.
And you think you know better than all these men?
Yes, exactly as you have done. All of the grammatical and versional evidence mitigates against your chosen position but you ignore it because it does not fit your presupposition.
Yes, the Jews rejected Christ in and of themselves, while the elect accept Christ by the manifold Grace of God.
As for Greek scholars who, according to you, don't know what they are talking about, just one version, the venerable old King James New Testament was translated by these men:
Dr. Richard Brett was one of the world's foremost experts in Latin, Greek, Chaldee, Arabic and Ethioptic languages.
Dr. John Harmer, Professor of Greek at Oxford was a noted linguist having mastered not only Greek, but Latin and Hebrew as well.
Dr. Lawrence Chaderton was skilled in Greek and Hebrew, and a student of the ancient Jewish writings called "The Rabbis."
Dr. Thomas Harrison was noted for his skill in Hebrew and Greek idioms.
Dr. Lancelot Andrews is said to have been completely fluent in fifteen languages, and had his private devotions in the Greek New Testament, and kept a journal of his devotions written entirely in Greek.
Dr. Henry Savile was selected to work with the group that was to translate the New Testament at Oxford. He was chosen to translate the Gospels, the Book of Acts, and the Revelation. Dr. Savile was said to be as great a mathematician as he was a Greek scholar. He was chosen to tutor Queen Elizabeth in both mathematics and Greek. Dr. Savile was not only famous for his translation of the great history of Tacitus from Latin into English, but also translated the mathematical work of Euclid on geometry from Greek into English. However, Dr. Savile was most famous for his editing and translating of the complete works of John Chrysostom, one of the most famous of the early Greek church fathers, from the Greek into English. This was a work similar in size to eight very large dictionaries!
Dr. John Bois was a New Testament translator at Cambridge. At the age of five he had read the entire Bible in Hebrew. At the age of six he could write the Hebrew language in "a fair and elegant" hand. He was equally skilled in Greek. He was one of the twelve, two from each committee, who were sent to make the final revision at Stationer's Hall in London. On top of all of his other duties, he was the secretary for the final revision committee, taking notes on all of the meetings. It is largely through his notes that we have knowledge of the inner workings of the committee in this day and age.
And you think you know better than all these men?
Thanks for the information. I am well aware of this anyway, as I use the King James version, and am from Old England, and know of these scholars.
I can never put myself in the same category as such eminent men, who are still among the very best for Biblical studies, as were Scrivener and Burgon, the best textual critics ever! However, I will yet question their judgement on this important Christological text, Titus 2:13;
"προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ"
The King James Versions renders the Greek as :
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
This is incorrect of what the Greek says, as it makes it TWO Persons, whereas it is "our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ", where the great Greek scholar, Granville Sharp, laid the rules for the Greek grammar that has stood the test of time, which shows that only ONE Person is here meant. Shows that even the "greats" you mention are mere humans!
Thanks for the information. I am well aware of this anyway, as I use the King James version, and am from Old England, and know of these scholars.
I can never put myself in the same category as such eminent men, who are still among the very best for Biblical studies, as were Scrivener and Burgon, the best textual critics ever! However, I will yet question their judgement on this important Christological text, Titus 2:13;
"προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ"
The King James Versions renders the Greek as :
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
This is incorrect of what the Greek says, as it makes it TWO Persons, whereas it is "our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ", where the great Greek scholar, Granville Sharp, laid the rules for the Greek grammar that has stood the test of time, which shows that only ONE Person is here meant. Shows that even the "greats" you mention are mere humans!
Their translation of Tit. 2.13 only makes it possible to interpret it that way, but it does not necessitate it.
Stop trying to defend what is clearly incorrect grammar! The fact of the matter is, the construction of the Greek is very clear, that ONE Person, the Lord Jesus Christ is meant. There is no room to suppose that it could mean TWO. The Jehovah's Witnesses have no problem with the KJV here, but do so with the NKJV and others who get it right!
Exactly. "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." To me, "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" is One Person.
But that is not his point. His point is that he can't support his theory, which is rejected by just about every Greek scholar who ever lived, including those translators I listed, so he is dodging the question by diverting attention to a completely unrelated issue as every English version since Granville Sharp reads in a similar fashion to the KJV.
Jehovah's Witnesses have no problem with your translation of Ac. 13.48 either. The following is Ac. 13.48 as it is translated in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures:
When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.
It looks like you are in good company.
We preach Jesus in obedience, and the Spirit Himself used that teaching to make the elect come alive in Christ!
Yes, exactly as you have done. All of the grammatical and versional evidence mitigates against your chosen position but you ignore it because it does not fit your presupposition.
Yes, the Jews rejected Christ in and of themselves, while the elect accept Christ by the manifold Grace of God.
As for Greek scholars who, according to you, don't know what they are talking about, just one version, the venerable old King James New Testament was translated by these men:
Dr. Richard Brett was one of the world's foremost experts in Latin, Greek, Chaldee, Arabic and Ethioptic languages.
Dr. John Harmer, Professor of Greek at Oxford was a noted linguist having mastered not only Greek, but Latin and Hebrew as well.
Dr. Lawrence Chaderton was skilled in Greek and Hebrew, and a student of the ancient Jewish writings called "The Rabbis."
Dr. Thomas Harrison was noted for his skill in Hebrew and Greek idioms.
Dr. Lancelot Andrews is said to have been completely fluent in fifteen languages, and had his private devotions in the Greek New Testament, and kept a journal of his devotions written entirely in Greek.
Dr. Henry Savile was selected to work with the group that was to translate the New Testament at Oxford. He was chosen to translate the Gospels, the Book of Acts, and the Revelation. Dr. Savile was said to be as great a mathematician as he was a Greek scholar. He was chosen to tutor Queen Elizabeth in both mathematics and Greek. Dr. Savile was not only famous for his translation of the great history of Tacitus from Latin into English, but also translated the mathematical work of Euclid on geometry from Greek into English. However, Dr. Savile was most famous for his editing and translating of the complete works of John Chrysostom, one of the most famous of the early Greek church fathers, from the Greek into English. This was a work similar in size to eight very large dictionaries!
Dr. John Bois was a New Testament translator at Cambridge. At the age of five he had read the entire Bible in Hebrew. At the age of six he could write the Hebrew language in "a fair and elegant" hand. He was equally skilled in Greek. He was one of the twelve, two from each committee, who were sent to make the final revision at Stationer's Hall in London. On top of all of his other duties, he was the secretary for the final revision committee, taking notes on all of the meetings. It is largely through his notes that we have knowledge of the inner workings of the committee in this day and age.
And you think you know better than all these men?
Would have to be, to try to make the text say what is being suggested!
Yes, they also translated the Holy Spirit as ai "IT", so there erred in certain places, but does not negate that they were right in the specifis area mentioned concerning what James Whote talked about!Thanks for the information. I am well aware of this anyway, as I use the King James version, and am from Old England, and know of these scholars.
I can never put myself in the same category as such eminent men, who are still among the very best for Biblical studies, as were Scrivener and Burgon, the best textual critics ever! However, I will yet question their judgement on this important Christological text, Titus 2:13;
"προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ"
The King James Versions renders the Greek as :
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
This is incorrect of what the Greek says, as it makes it TWO Persons, whereas it is "our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ", where the great Greek scholar, Granville Sharp, laid the rules for the Greek grammar that has stood the test of time, which shows that only ONE Person is here meant. Shows that even the "greats" you mention are mere humans!
You make me laugh! Which theory has been rejected by about every Greek scholar? Of course the reading of Titus 2:13 in the KJV you agree with, because you probably think that Jesus Christ wrote it! Therefore you show a blind faithfulness to it, whether it is right or wrong. See the reading of 2 Peter 1:1, where again the KJV have wrongly translated it to show 2 Persons. the SAME Greek construction is found 1:11, 2:20 and 3:2, where the difference is that "κυρίου" is used, and yet in these places it is one Person.
Further, when we have the Greek "μονογενὴς", the KJV with all its language experts, again get this very wrong, and render it "only-begotten", for which the Greek would read, "μονογέννητος". The word is from "μόνος and γένος", which rightly means: "of a single kind", or "unique", and has nothing to do with "begetting", which is the false reading from the Latin Vulgate, that has "unigenitus", the right word is, "unicus", which the Old Latin versions had. Still, there are those who no doubt are more interested in "traditions of men", than what the Word of God actually says!
James White says nothing about the Greek grammar of Acts 13:48, as he has completely ignored the fact that the context demands that the "middle voice" meaning is adopted. Anyhow, judging from other posts I have read here by certain people, the truth of the matter is not that important when "theology" is what they are more concerned with!
I have nothing further to say on this...
I think that almost all of us approach this based upon our theology, as you would be trying to assert it stating something different based upon your own theology!
Wrong. The Greek pronoun is neuter.
so, these great Greek scholars in Romans 8:26, render the Greek, "ἀλλὰ αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα", because you say that the pronoun "αὐτὸ" is in the neuter, and therefore in agreement with the Greek grammar, because "τὸ πνεῦμα" is also neuter? If this be the case, then why in John "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him (αὐτό) not, neither knoweth him (αὐτό): but ye know him (αὐτό); for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you", is the same neuter pronoun "αὐτό", here translated as "Him"? (14:17)
It is more candid to admit their mistakes than to keep trying to cover for them!
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