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3 days and 3 nights

R

rstrats

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Ben W,

re: “I am just wondering if anyone would be aware of which denominations teach the Wednesday crucifixion...”

Several would be:

Assemblies of Yahweh

Triumph Prophetic Ministries

Yahweh’s New Covenant Assembly

The Church of God Evangelistic Association

Church of the Great God

The House of Yahweh

Church of God, in Truth

World Prophetic Ministry

Philadelphia Church of God

Church of God, The Eternal
 
Ben W

Ben W

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Cool,

How about denominations that are openly Trinitarian?

Not that I am knocking the above, I have recently begun getting the magazine from the Church of the Great God and I find it quite helpfull.
 
R

rstrats

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Dr. Bob Griffin,

I would still like to see your documentation for your assertion that the phrase “three days and three nights” was used by first century Jews to mean something other than what the phrase means in English - at least parts of three light periods and at least parts of three dark periods?
 
Ben W

Ben W

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I have added that one to the favourites list to have a look at later on.
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I have heard of Ron Dart before and am sure the he is in with one of the WCOG breakaways, I am not sure which.

So if anyone is aware of a Trinitarian Denomination that teaches the Wednesday Crucifiction Teaching, please forward it to me or post it here. I would be particurly interested in what else they had to say on other things.
 
C

Charles Meadows

New Member
The "three days and three nights" thing tends to get people confused. The important thing in Mt 12:40 is that Jesus is referring to Jonah (Jonah 2:1). The LXX says he was in the belly of a whale for three days and three nights. Matthew quotes the LXX here VERBATIM.

The point is the comparison!

Donald Hagner rightly points out in his WBC volume on Matthew that the literal three days and nights has been the obsession of many modern writers (since the gospel accounts say Friday PM to Sunday AM - not three days and nights) when this really would not have mattered to Matthew or his first century readers. I am not aware of an actual "idiom" in Hebrew grammar here but the concept is similar
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R

rstrats

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Charles Meadows,

re: “...the gospel accounts say Friday PM to Sunday AM...”

What scripture do you use to make that statement?
 
C

Charles Meadows

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OK there's no scripture in which "Friday" or "Sunday" are mentioned. ;)

But consider Luke 23:53-54...

..."and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation (ie the day before the Sabbath), and the Sabbath drew on."

Also consider Jn 19:31...

..."The Jews therefore because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath day..."

Let me ask this:

Why would anyone doubt it was Friday??? Other than Mt 12:40 (which we've already explained) why even consider Wednesday or Thursday?
 
S

skanwmatos

New Member
Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Why would anyone doubt it was Friday??? Other than Mt 12:40 (which we've already explained) why even consider Wednesday or Thursday?
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The main reason is because the bible says so. John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." The first day of Passover was always a "Special" sabbath regardless of the week day it fell on. Lev 23:7.
 
R

rstrats

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Charles Meadows,

re: “ But consider Luke 23:53-54....’and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation (ie the day before the Sabbath), and the Sabbath drew on.’"

Since Luke 24:21 is clear that the crucifixion couldn’t have occurred on Friday, the preparation day and Sabbath being mentioned in your reference must refer to days other than Friday and Saturday. John 19:31 identifies the preparation day in question as the day before a “high day” Sabbath, which in this case was the first day of the feast of the Passover. That the term “preparation day “ did not always have to mean the day before the 7th day Sabbath is attested to by Rabbi Samuel Lacks who states: “The day of preparation (Greek ‘paraskeue’) equals Friday OR the day before a holiday” - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament]. Therefore, the preparation day mentioned in your references did not have to be referring to a Friday.


re: “Why would anyone doubt it was Friday???”

Because Luke 24:21 indicates that it wasn’t.


re: “Other than Mt 12:40 (which we've already explained)...”

As I asked Dr. Bob Griffin a couple of times, I would still like to see the documentation for the assertion that the phrase “three days and three nights” was used by first century Jews to mean something other than what the phrase means in English - at least parts of three light periods and at least parts of three dark periods.
 
C

Charles Meadows

New Member
Lk 24:21 says it was the "third day" since these "things were done". This could still be Friday, Saturday, Sunday (1,2,3). You're right it could have been - but Lk 24:21 does not PROVE that it was not friday.

Also the reference to paraskeue (Hebrew equivalent is e VO DAH, a work) does imply that it could have been a "special Sabbath" and not Saturday. This argument has been raised before, not unreasonably, suggesting that the Qumran solar calendar was in use in additional to the Jewish lunar calendar - this would have made the Crucifixion on thursday. Again, no proof either way.

Regarding the "Hebrew idiom" I'd have to agree with you on this. I know of no such idiom. But the point of Mt 12:40 is that it was a quote from the LXX which said 3 days and 3 nights.

My question is still - what makes you look for a non-Friday date? I'm not saying this incredulously; I'm really asking! Is it that you have a hard time with Lk 24:21 and Mt12:40 seeming to not be literally fulfilled by a Friday crucifixion?
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C

Charles Meadows

New Member
I guess I should add this about the supposed "idiom" of three days and three nights. I guess what Dr Bob was referring to is the seeming use of "days" interchangeably with "days and nights".

Christiancourier.com has some nice examples of this.

Consider:

Gen 7:12,17 (40 days and 40 nights - or just 40 days?)

1 Sam 30:12 three days or three days and three nights?

Esther 4:16, 5:1 three days or three days and three nights?

I wouldn't call this idiomatic but it does reflect a little different way of expressing time than we're used to!
 
R

rstrats

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Charles Meadows,

re: “But the point of Mt 12:40 is that it was a quote from the LXX which said 3 days and 3 nights”

I’m afraid I don’t understand your point.


re: “My question is still - what makes you look for a non-Friday date? ... Is it that you have a hard time with Lk 24:21 and Mt12:40 seeming to not be literally fulfilled by a Friday crucifixion?”

I think the better question would be: what is in the Biblical record that makes it absolutely necessary to make Luke 24:21 and Matthew 12:40 mean something other than what they literally say?
 
C

Charles Meadows

New Member
rstrats,

OK. That makes sense. Those verses do LITERALLY seem to support a period longer than Friday through Sunday in the tomb. Your argument is cogent, particularly given the solar calendar evidence from Qumran.

Regarding the LXX my point is that the verse from Jonah was being quoted - so the mention of three days AND three nights was made to parallel that verse - not implying that the Son of Man would have to be in the tomb the exact same length of time.

To ME, taking it all together (for the reasons I gave above), things still seem to make more sense to have a Friday crucifixion (since I am not always a literalist!) but I cannot definitively REFUTE your arguments.

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R

rstrats

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Charles Meadows,

re: “Gen 7:12,17 (40 days and 40 nights - or just 40 days?)”

Verse 17 says that the flood was on the earth for 40 days. However, verse 12 says that not only was the rain on the earth for 40 days but that it was also on the earth for 40 nights. Genesis 1:5 says that God called the light day, and the darkness He called night.


re: “1 Sam 30:12 three days or three days and three nights?”

The verse says three nights as well as three days.


re: “Esther 4:16, 5:1 three days or three days and three nights?”

Nothing is said in the two verses about “three nights”. We have a specific period of time which includes 3 days but we don’t know how many nights are involved. It could be 2 or 3.
 
C

Charles Meadows

New Member
He staked His messiahship on dying and rising! I I have to admit the case for a Wednesday or even a Thursday death is not without merit. It could have happened. But to assert that it MUST be the case is going to far!! If the position for a non Friday crucifixion is rooted in the need to LITERALLY fulfill Mt 12:40 then the position is founded on erroneous assumptions! Literal interpretation of every verse in scripture will result in missing much of its richness - but that's a whole different thread I suppose!

Consider this!

"I'm going to go on vacation for a couple of days..."

A "couple" means two, not one and not three! But how many of us would simply say "a couple" when we mean not literally "two" but "a few". This is what we see in Mt 12:40.

Besides, Raymond Brown favors a Friday date! ;)

Merry Christmas all!
 
Dr. Bob

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
Webster Dictionary

Couple
1. Joining
2. Two things associated of the same sort
3. Man and woman who are engaged, married
4. A few, several (as in "a couple of items on my list"
5. Two metals in contact to form a current

We use the idiomatic "couple" all the time and NO ONE will expect that if you say "I'll be back on the BB in a couple of days" that means you will be hear exactly 48 hours from now!

If you read Edersheim's account on proving the death of Lazarus (4 days) you will see mention of the 3-days and 3-nights as idiomatic.

(BTW, I am NOT in disagreement with much of the thinking here, since other references to the resurrection talk about this amount of time and do NOT use any idiom. Very clear. I am a "Thursday" man, personally.)
 
B

Bible Believing Bill

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Why does it even matter if the crucifixion was on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or even on any other day of the week.

The IMPORTANT point is that JESUS DIED WAS BURIED AND ROSE AGAIN!. The timing dosn't really matter.

Bill
 
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