67th Anniversary of "A Date That Will Live in Imfamy"

[ktn4eg]

Tomorrow, December 7, 2008, the US will observe what is called Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day---the anniversary of the Japanese Empire's surpise attack on the US Navy's Pacific Fleet's home base at Pearl Harbor on Oahu Island of Hawaii.

In what was probably his most-remembered speech, to the emergency joint session of the Congress (House & Senate) of the US on 12/08/1941, President FDR called that date the one date "that will live in infamy."

Now, I realize there has been a lot of speculation ever since then on whether or not members of, or even FDR himself, had some how "arranged" for all of the battleships and other accompanying vessels of the Pacfic Fleet to be anchored there during that period of time.

I doubt whether we'll ever know "the whole truth and nothing but" on that point, but be that as it may, our response to the Japanese Empire's raid probably did the most to change the lives and future policies of our nation's government and all of its citizens more than any one single act of the 20th Century.

As I can remember where and what I was doing when the news announcements came when JFK was assassinated in 11/1963....and as this generation will probably remember what they were doing as they watched the events of 09/11/2001 unfold before their eyes, the generation of which my parents were members can probably remember what they were doing on that late Sunday evening as radio news flashes were broadcast over their old radios of "something terrible" taking place over in Hawaii.

Regardless of what people called themselves on December 6, 1941 -- Republicans, Democrats, "isolationiists," or whatever, after FDR's December 8, 1941, speech they were all simply AMERICANS !!

We experienced some of that same sensation immediately after 09/11/2001, but that quickly faded as "The Global War on Terrorism" became a subject for debate in the succeeding years--and was probably the one single issue that changed the leadership of the US Congress in 2006, and probably was the single most debated foreign policy issue in this year's presidential campaign.

But back in the 1940's we laid aside our political and other issues to stand side-by-side with our neighbors and relatives.

In the words of President Lincoln almost 80 years earlier than 12/07/1941, we may forget what was said at the Gettysburg battlefield memorial dedication, "but let us never forget what they did here."

I hope that we who are living will take some time to remember those men and women whose lives were taken on that day, and those whose lives were taken in the war that followed.

Thank you, those of the ranks of "All gave Some, Some gave All"!

We have our freedom to post here on BB, to debate about just about anything we can think of, to attack, accuse, name-call as well as to agree, pray for, comfort and sympathize with "whoever" about "whatever" because of you.

The eyesight of your rapidly-depleting ranks is probably diminishing, but our thanks to you should never diminsh.

It's my hope that in our services on Sunday, December 7, 2008, you will take at least a few minutes to remember those of that generation, and thank God for those who answered the call to don the uniform of our country (be it a military one, a Red Cross one, a "Rosy the Riveter" one, a USO one, or whatever) "back then."

Thank you, members of "The Greatest Generation," for what you did "back then"!

It's because of what you did "back then" that we have the freedom to do what we do "right now."

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his freinds." --- John 15:13

 

[annsni]

Amen.

Even though I'm way too young to have experienced anything from WW2, my father fought in the war. We had a church drama a few years ago at Christmas (actually we've done it twice) that was based on that Christmas in 1942. When they got to the point of announcing the attack on Pearl Harbor I swear it was as if we were there. I saw the play a total of 5 times and each time I cried when they got to that point. I can't imagine the horror and pain of what everyone felt at that time. Well, I can a little bit - because I'm in NY and remember 9/11 like it was yesterday. To lose that secure feeling we have here in the US......

My heart and mind will be with those families who lost a loved one that December morning. And my prayers are being said for our country that we never lose sight of the One who allows governments to rise and fall at the whisper of His voice.

 

[ray Marshall]

Amen.

Even though I'm way too young to have experienced anything from WW2, my father fought in the war. We had a church drama a few years ago at Christmas (actually we've done it twice) that was based on that Christmas in 1942. When they got to the point of announcing the attack on Pearl Harbor I swear it was as if we were there. I saw the play a total of 5 times and each time I cried when they got to that point. I can't imagine the horror and pain of what everyone felt at that time. Well, I can a little bit - because I'm in NY and remember 9/11 like it was yesterday. To lose that secure feeling we have here in the US......

My heart and mind will be with those families who lost a loved one that December morning. And my prayers are being said for our country that we never lose sight of the One who allows governments to rise and fall at the whisper of His voice.

I realize that some of you will scarf me for saying this as they did about the comments I raised about the 911 attack, but President Rosenvelt lined up situations that caused the Japanese to bomb Pearle Harbor. I was aware of it in the 70s and now the History channel has documentaries aired of how Franklin Rosenvelt ussured us into the 11 World War.

 

[annsni]

I realize that some of you will scarf me for saying this as they did about the comments I raised about the 911 attack, but President Rosenvelt lined up situations that caused the Japanese to bomb Pearle Harbor. I was aware of it in the 70s and now the History channel has documentaries aired of how Franklin Rosenvelt ussured us into the 11 World War.

Why bring an agenda to a rememberance of a terrible day in America's history. Honestly, I see that as a slap in the face of all of those who lost their lives.

It reminds me of my brother who is in the Navy and was stationed in Hawaii and he spoke of a Japanese group who came to the U.S.S. Arizona memorial and were laughing and taking pictures - totally disrespectful.

:tear:

 

[ray Marshall]

Why bring an agenda to a rememberance of a terrible day in America's history. Honestly, I see that as a slap in the face of all of those who lost their lives.

It reminds me of my brother who is in the Navy and was stationed in Hawaii and he spoke of a Japanese group who came to the U.S.S. Arizona memorial and were laughing and taking pictures - totally disrespectful.

:tear:

I wouldn't doubt what you have said. I believe your brother has told you the truth about the japanese making laughter over our calamity of the ships that were sunk that day. I don't think anyone wins in war. Many killed wounded physical and mental and also broken homes of the men who survive to come home and found their wives have taken up with other men and divorced them and married other men.

 

[billwald]

How many wars that the US started in the last 40 years began with a declaration of war? Exactly how was the invasion of Iraq or the various South American invasions different than Pearl Harbor? The recent invasion of Pakistan?

 

[LeBuick]

Thank God for all those throughout history who sacrificed for our freedom. No matter what role they played or when they played that role, I appreciate it.

 

[LeBuick]

I realize that some of you will scarf me for saying this as they did about the comments I raised about the 911 attack, but President Rosenvelt lined up situations that caused the Japanese to bomb Pearle Harbor. I was aware of it in the 70s and now the History channel has documentaries aired of how Franklin Rosenvelt ussured us into the 11 World War.

No doubt we needed a good reason to enter the war. We were loosing merchant ships in the Atlantic and Germany has entered our shores. The allies needed us in Europe or they would have gone to certain defeat. Most of what I see on Roosevelt was speculation. Yes, many balls were dropped from intelligence that warned of the attack but to say he ushered us in is kind of strong.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I realize that some of you will scarf me for saying this as they did about the comments I raised about the 911 attack, but President Rosenvelt lined up situations that caused the Japanese to bomb Pearle Harbor. I was aware of it in the 70s and now the History channel has documentaries aired of how Franklin Rosenvelt ussured us into the 11 World War.

I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that your brother mistook a group of Chinese for Japanese. Both are great at taking pictures when they travel. However there is a big difference in their cultures. Japanese are quite formal and quiet when they are in public. I cannot remember of ever seen a Japanese group in a public place and hearing laughter. I have heard them speak softly to each other, but not loudly to each other. The Chinese are much more open when in public, teasing each other and talking and shouting to each other. In public, at least, the Chinese are much more fun loving.

It is interesting however that in art the opposite seems to be true. In some Japanese art there is real humor in the drawings/paintings, but never in Chinese art.

 

[annsni]

I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that your brother mistook a group of Chinese for Japanese. Both are great at taking pictures when they travel. However there is a big difference in their cultures. Japanese are quite formal and quiet when they are in public. I cannot remember of ever seen a Japanese group in a public place and hearing laughter. I have heard them speak softly to each other, but not loudly to each other. The Chinese are much more open when in public, teasing each other and talking and shouting to each other. In public, at least, the Chinese are much more fun loving.

It is interesting however that in art the opposite seems to be true. In some Japanese art there is real humor in the drawings/paintings, but never in Chinese art.

No - these were Japanese.

It's funny - we have a ministry to the Chinese and I find that they are quiet also. They are not loud and shouting even when we took them to a football game that they could participate in. Maybe it's just a different type of group (these are graduate students).

 

[rbell]

No doubt we needed a good reason to enter the war. We were loosing merchant ships in the Atlantic and Germany has entered our shores. The allies needed us in Europe or they would have gone to certain defeat. Most of what I see on Roosevelt was speculation. Yes, many balls were dropped from intelligence that warned of the attack but to say he ushered us in is kind of strong.

I would take it beyond "strong," to "ridiculous."

Just MHO.

How many wars that the US started in the last 40 years began with a declaration of war? Exactly how was the invasion of Iraq or the various South American invasions different than Pearl Harbor? The recent invasion of Pakistan?

Um...dontcha think that's a wee bit off topic?

 

[sag38]

So, Rosevelt lied and people died. Back in that day to say something like that would have gotten you a black eye at the very least. And, in my opinion it still should.

 

[annsni]

Tomorrow, December 7, 2008, the US will observe what is called Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day---the anniversary of the Japanese Empire's surpise attack on the US Navy's Pacific Fleet's home base at Pearl Harbor on Oahu Island of Hawaii.

In what was probably his most-remembered speech, to the emergency joint session of the Congress (House & Senate) of the US on 12/08/1941, President FDR called that date the one date "that will live in infamy."

Now, I realize there has been a lot of speculation ever since then on whether or not members of, or even FDR himself, had some how "arranged" for all of the battleships and other accompanying vessels of the Pacfic Fleet to be anchored there during that period of time.

I doubt whether we'll ever know "the whole truth and nothing but" on that point, but be that as it may, our response to the Japanese Empire's raid probably did the most to change the lives and future policies of our nation's government and all of its citizens more than any one single act of the 20th Century.

As I can remember where and what I was doing when the news announcements came when JFK was assassinated in 11/1963....and as this generation will probably remember what they were doing as they watched the events of 09/11/2001 unfold before their eyes, the generation of which my parents were members can probably remember what they were doing on that late Sunday evening as radio news flashes were broadcast over their old radios of "something terrible" taking place over in Hawaii.

Regardless of what people called themselves on December 6, 1941 -- Republicans, Democrats, "isolationiists," or whatever, after FDR's December 8, 1941, speech they were all simply AMERICANS !!

We experienced some of that same sensation immediately after 09/11/2001, but that quickly faded as "The Global War on Terrorism" became a subject for debate in the succeeding years--and was probably the one single issue that changed the leadership of the US Congress in 2006, and probably was the single most debated foreign policy issue in this year's presidential campaign.

But back in the 1940's we laid aside our political and other issues to stand side-by-side with our neighbors and relatives.

In the words of President Lincoln almost 80 years earlier than 12/07/1941, we may forget what was said at the Gettysburg battlefield memorial dedication, "but let us never forget what they did here."

I hope that we who are living will take some time to remember those men and women whose lives were taken on that day, and those whose lives were taken in the war that followed.

Thank you, those of the ranks of "All gave Some, Some gave All"!

We have our freedom to post here on BB, to debate about just about anything we can think of, to attack, accuse, name-call as well as to agree, pray for, comfort and sympathize with "whoever" about "whatever" because of you.

The eyesight of your rapidly-depleting ranks is probably diminishing, but our thanks to you should never diminsh.

It's my hope that in our services on Sunday, December 7, 2008, you will take at least a few minutes to remember those of that generation, and thank God for those who answered the call to don the uniform of our country (be it a military one, a Red Cross one, a "Rosy the Riveter" one, a USO one, or whatever) "back then."

Thank you, members of "The Greatest Generation," for what you did "back then"!

It's because of what you did "back then" that we have the freedom to do what we do "right now."

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his freinds." --- John 15:13

I thought the purpose of this thread was to remember those who gave their lives in service to our country and remember a day that scarred the hearts of the US citizens years ago.

I didn't think it was a thread to start spouting off on conspiracy theories.

I'm embarrassed by what has been posted here - on a thread to remember.

 

[sag38]

A good book giving a fair balance to both the Japanese' perspective and that of the United States is Flyboys by James Bradley. It's the first book I've read that tried to give a balanced view of the war with Japan allowing the reader to come to his or her own conclusions about who was right and who was wrong.

With that said, there is no doubt that some serious blunders occurred on the part of the United States concerning the Dec. 7th attack on Pearl Harbor. There's plenty of blame to go around. However, it's a far far stretch to say that Roosevelt orchestrated the attack. Some folks never met a conspiracy theory they didn't like. I guess they listen to too much late night talk radio. Fact, is several thousand U.S. service men and women lost their lives as a result of this attack and many thousands more would die on both sides as a result. Truly it is a day that will live in infamy.

 

[billwald]

Not off topic.

1. Why are the enemy forces considered less brave and heroic than American forces?

2. Why is stuff that other nations do to us evil but it is heroic when we do it to other nations?

3. Don't our owners encourage military patriotism so they will not run out of cannon fodder?

4. Since WW1 has any stinking rich family, Rominovs (sp?) excepted, lost money because of any war?

 

[ktn4eg]

Not off topic.

1. Why are the enemy forces considered less brave and heroic than American forces?

2. Why is stuff that other nations do to us evil but it is heroic when we do it to other nations?

3. Don't our owners encourage military patriotism so they will not run out of cannon fodder?

4. Since WW1 has any stinking rich family, Rominovs (sp?) excepted, lost money because of any war?

Since I was the one who wrote the OP (and therefore consider it a vicious personal attack against me and my integrity as a brother in Christ for having the inmitigated gall to post what I did in my OP), I will attempt to answer your four Red Herrings:

1) Show me in my OP exactly where I made any such statements where I stated that enemy forces were less brave and heroic than American forces. Oh, that's right.........I didn't make any such statements, now did I?

2) Show me in my OP exactly where I made any such statements indicating that "stuff that other nations do to us is evil but it is heroic when we do it to other nations." Oh, that's right......I didn't make any such statements, now did I?

3) Show me in my OP exactly where I made any such statement contradictory to your assertion that "....our 'owners' [Whatever that means. The only who "owns" me is the One who bought me with a price--The precious blood of Christ!] encourage military patriotism so they will not run out of cannon fodder." Oh, that's right.....I didn't make any such statement, now did I?

4) Show me in my OP exactly where I made any any such statement contradictory to your assertion that "Since WW1 has any stinking rich family, Romanov (sp?) excepted, lost any money because of any war?" Oh that's right....I didn't make any such statement, now did I?


So far, according to my calculations, you're 0 for 4 in proving that my OP made any of these statements or assertions.

Therefore, I'm openly challenging you to come up with the uncontestable, exact, verbatim, word-for-word statements or assertions of my OP that prove beyond the shadow of doubt support any of the four accusations you openly made against me, a brother in Christ, for what I stated in my OP!

You have, for no reason that I can figure out except to rub your own unthankful and unappreciative attitude in the faces those whose bodies still lay unburied behind the sunken hull of the USS Arizona, or those buried at the Normandy Battlefied cemetery, or those buried in Arlington, or those whose graves dot the various military or other private cemeteries of not only the US, but also of all those other nations throughout the globe who were engaged in that world-wide conflict--not to mention the survivng members of untold families and communities of many nations all over the world whose sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, husbands and wives, friends and neighbors, etc., who never made it home.

If you want to spit on those graves of the fallen from WWII (Some of which are marked in English, some in French, some in Italian, some in German, some in Russian, some in many other languages--including Japanese), then go right ahead and do so.

But don't expect me to be there with you, patting you on the back for showing the rest of the world how a child of God shows his appreciation for those who've gone before him and preserved your freedom to spit on their graves.

 

[billwald]

I agree that once we were tricked into the war that we had to fight it to the end.

I agree that the combatants were heroic.

I agree that we would have been in deep dodo if we had lost.

I have no argument with the observations in the OP.

Sometimes you gots to do something even if it is wrong.

There are all kinds of freedom. We lost our political freedom when Lincoln disregarded the principles of the Declaration of Independence. Now days all we do is vote for our favorite tax collector.

 

[Revmitchell]

No one was "tricked" into to anything. You should prbably chack your facts.

 

[ktn4eg]

I agree that once we were tricked into the war that we had to fight it to the end.

I agree that the combatants were heroic.

I agree that we would have been in deep dodo if we had lost.

I have no argument with the observations in the OP.

Sometimes you gots to do something even if it is wrong.

There are all kinds of freedom. We lost our political freedom when Lincoln disregarded the principles of the Declaration of Independence. Now days all we do is vote for our favorite tax collector.

Why then haven't you chosen to 'vote by your feet' and move to that country that has always had the perfectly fair, never-susceptable-to-abuse, and overall lower rate and and gross amount of taxation?

This perfectly ideal, always fair, always right, never unjust, always honest and always 100% righteous in all of its dealings---both foreign and domestic--country needs someone just like you to be its chief promoter and cheerleader!!

Oh, and BTW, when you find this forever totally and completely inerrant nation, do all of us here on BB a favor and give us directions to it.

After all, we'd probably like to set up shop there too!

Trouble is, the preachers and evangelists and the "home missionaries" in that nation would have difficullty leading souls to Christ because everyone there, from the highest to the lowest, from top to bottom, from the least to the greatest, wouldn't need to hear the Gospel of Salvation by Grace Through Faith in the Finished Work and the Shed Blood of Christ!

After all........... every one of that country's people would already be sinlessly perfect.

 

[rbell]

Not off topic.

1. Why are the enemy forces considered less brave and heroic than American forces?

2. Why is stuff that other nations do to us evil but it is heroic when we do it to other nations?

3. Don't our owners encourage military patriotism so they will not run out of cannon fodder?

4. Since WW1 has any stinking rich family, Rominovs (sp?) excepted, lost money because of any war?

So...you assert that we are no better than Japan @ Pearl Harbor...Wow. That's disgusting.

It's also disgusting that you intimate that those who join the military do it because they are gullible, stupid, and have a death wish. After re-thinking, I would hope you try and wriggle out of that statement...but that is precisely what the flip side of your third point is.

I also find it revolting that you would imply that WW2 was fought so people could become richer. Maybe instead of making such ridiculous charges, you could find one of our fine WW2 vets and thank them for preserving freedom here--so folks like you can espouse ridiculous theories without government retribution.

And yes...your Iraq war comments were off topic. This thread is about WW2 and Pearl Harbor. If you want an Iraq war thread, go start one.