1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured A Baptist theological shift

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by rlvaughn, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The local association I was raised in (Texas) was organized in 1857. They adopted the New Hampshire Confession. It is a modified document that drastically waters down the Calvinism of the Philadelphia Confession. On the other hand, in 1868 this Missionary Baptist Association made peace overtures to the local Primitive Baptist Association -- even invited one of their preachers to preach for them in 1869. So they must not have thought a strict 5-point Calvinism heretical, or even all that odd.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So he would see 5 pointers as high, and 4 as being moderate ones?
     
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, that is kind of what it seemed like to me, but I think one would need to read more of Taylor to figure it out.

    I was reading on site today that "High Calvinism" is more about the the origin of evil, and perhaps one who believes in "double predestination," that is, both predestination and reprobation. I don't think I have any more ideas that can help sort it out.
     
  4. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yeshua, I checked in Taylor's first volume of Virginia Baptist Ministers to see if anything there might help shed light on his use of terms High Calvinism and Moderate Calvinism. Below are some excerpts. Also read the entire paragraph on Lewis Conner on page 186, and especially on Robert Latham on page 323. There Taylor seems to contrast Latham's "high Calvinism" with the views of Andrew Fuller.
    • John Weatherford: "In sentiment he was Calvinistic." -- p. 55
    • William Fristoe: "As a disputant he was able--few being qualified to compete with him in argument. His religious views were strongly Calvinistic." -- p. 73
    • John Corbley: "His sentiments were Calvinistic, being alike opposed to Arminianism and fatalism." -- p. 110
    • John Williams: "From the minutes of associations to which he belonged, and other sources, it appears that in his religious sentiments, he was a moderate Calvinist." -- p. 132
    • Lewis Conner: "Elder Conner might be considered a moderate Calvinist. The writer of this article has heard him preach a great number of sermons, without ever hearing him introduce any one of the 'five points' for special discussion...Next to the bible, he preferred the writings of President Edwards; and with such light as Edwards supplied him, he was in no danger of Antinomian extractions." -- p. 186
    • William Mason: "Elder Mason was in his doctrine moderately Calvinistic. Indeed, some of his more orthodox brethren used laughingly to charge him with 'wearing too large a cloak.' But he had the good fortune to live at a day when among Baptists a difference of opinion upon abstract propositions did not interrupt Christian communion." -- p. 201
    • Benjamin Burgher: "He usually inclined to dwell on the more doctrinal portions of Divine truth; and there was sometimes indulged a degree of severity in defending what are called Calvinistic sentiments." -- p. 202
    • Jeremiah Moore: "His system is high Calvinism, which he presents with great ingenuity." -- p. 221
    • Ambrose Dudley: "He was highly Calvinistic in his sentiments, and of unbending firmness where he thought truth and duty were involved." -- p. 222
    • Samuel L. Straughan: "In his doctrine he was clearly and plainly evangelical. He might be termed a moderate Calvinist." -- p. 277
    • Robert Latham: "His system was high Calvinism, and to some he seemed to border on fatalism, but this he himself denied as a consequence growing out of his views." -- p. 323
    • Jeremiah Hatcher: "He was an uncompromising Calvinist. In sentiment, as a preacher, he was plain, pointed and consistent." -- pp. 338-339
    • Francis Moore: "He was a great admirer of Dr. Gill, and considered the sentiments usually denominated Calvinistic as clearly taught in the Sacred Scriptures." -- p. 425
     
  5. The Parson

    The Parson Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    4
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My great grandfathers "sentiment" was Calvinistic, but historically in my family, he was alone in those beliefs. He recanted in his later years, but he had always told us, (my grandfather, my dad, and myself,) that there has always been a rift in our Baptist brethren from the days his fathers father came over from Wales and Scotland. The majority of my family still rejects Calvin's notions as did the majority of our forefathers. It's a long time family issue.

    Anyway, my great grandfather, in his words, couldn't ever get past the word "whosoever"!
     
  6. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,796
    Likes Received:
    700
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What he meant by Baptists holding that "the atonement is general in its nature" was that they held that the atonement was general in nature.

    As you described in your article:
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't think that is necessarily a given, that he would define it the way I did in my article. It seems that a move from a strict view of predestination and reprobation to a view that claims the atonement was sufficient for all but efficient for only the elect might be viewed as more "general in its nature."
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,612
    Likes Received:
    2,896
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Around here in this locale the split between the Old Schoolers and the New was more of a drifting apart, so I understand. They would share the same buildings and attend each other's meetings, much of the difference being between the older and younger generations.

    The split between the Old School and Campbellites, however, was very heated and destructive. CoC has their origins right here in the Bluegrass.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There were both particular and general Baptists which rebelled against the Anglican Church of England. Initially I believe Calvinism dominated but that shifted in the other direction. The bedrock statement of Baptist faith was the New Hampshire Confession of 1833. Baptists split in Northern (now American) Baptists in about 1845 for basically the same reasons which led to the Civil War. American Baptists have essentially stayed with the principals of the NH Confession. Southern Baptists did as well until the 50'S when Hershel Hobbs championed the idea of eternal security. The statement "Only those who persevere until the end" is included in the 1925 BF&M and remains as an American Baptist (as well as Methodist) belief but was removed from the 1963 and 2000 BF&M's. Hobbes was opposed by Dale Moody.
     
  10. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is a comparison of the New Hampshire Confession and Baptist Faith and Message on the topic:

    NHC 1833
    BFM 1925
    In 1963 this was made the second paragraph of section V and somewhat reworded:
    2000 BF&M
    If I accurately remember Dale Moody's views on falling from grace, they were not the same as the statement on perseverance of the saints in the 1833 NHC and 1925 BFM.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Once again you know not of which you speak:

    Southern Baptist Convention > The Baptist Faith and Message
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It seems that everyone has their own definitions of what 'High' and 'Hyper-' Calvinism are. In the past, 'High' Calvinism tended to be the belief in Justification from Eternity (as opposed to election in eternity) which was a belief of John Gill and several others (in opposition to the 1689 Confession XI:4).
    Hyper-Calvinism in my understanding is the belief that God's grace should not be offered to unbelievers. This teaching originated with a Congregationalist called Joseph Hussey, who wrote a book entitled God's Operations of Grace but no offers of Grace, and spread through men like John Skepp and John Brine into the Baptists (contra Mark 1:15; John 6:37 etc.).

    But all the Particular Baptists, from Gill and Skepp through to Fuller and Carey, and on to Spurgeon, believed in Particular or Limited Atonement. The clue is in the name: if you don't believe in Particular Atonement, you're not a Particular Baptist QED. Four-point 'Calvinism' is not Calvinism.

    I would go on to say that the 'High' Calvinism of Gill is an error (cf. Isaiah 12:1), but Hyper-Calvinism (as I have described it) is outside of Christian orthodoxy
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another problem is that those such as Norman Geisler have seemed to see what is called as normal 5 point calvinism as being Hyper form of it!
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is Geisler's problem, not mine. :)
     
  15. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As an English Baptist, how do you view the Gospel Standard Baptists such as William Gadsby, J. C. Philpot and B. A. Ramsbottom?
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    'Mixed feelings' would be the short answer. It's impossible not to have respect for Gadsby who did wonderful work for the Gospel in Manchester and the surrounding area at the time of the Industrial Revolution. However, I can't agree with his belief that the law is not the Christian's rule of life. SFAIK Gadsby led a blameless private life, but the same cannot be said for some of those whom he discipled.

    I respect Philpot for following his principles in coming out of the Church of England and some of his writings are very edifying. However, his Calvinism is just a little high for me as is Ramsbottom's.

    Articles 33 &34 of the Gospel Standard Articles of faith (which were added, I think, after Philpott's time), are utterly wrong in that they inhibit the free preaching of the Gospel and the free offer to Christ to the penitent:-

    33. Preaching To The Unconverted

    Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Ghost, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and, on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption.

    34. Preaching Of The Gospel
    (Exhorting The Unregenerate)


    We believe that any such expressions as convey to the hearers the belief that they possess a certain power to flee to the Saviour, to close in with Christ, to receive Christ, while in an unregenerate state, so that unless they do thus close with Christ, etc., they shall perish, are untrue, and must, therefore, be rejected. And we further believe that we have no Scripture warrant to take the exhortations in the Old Testament intended for the Jews in national covenant with God, and apply them in a spiritual and saving sense to unregenerated men.

    Finally, here is Philpott's letter of resignation from the Church of England. It caused quite a furore at the time and is an interesting read, though rather long.
    Philpot’s Letter of Resignation from the Church of England
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    His view seems to be a prominent one among certain Christians though...
     
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks for giving your take on this. I only know these men through reading. I have been particularly blessed by Gadsby's hymn book and Philpot "Through Baca's Vale" devotionals. I haven't read much by Ramsbottom but figured your were aware of him as a more modern representative of these Baptists. I notice in the Articles of Faith and Rules on their website that it mentions that articles 32-35 were added -- but it doesn't say when. This suggests that some of these points might not have been as agreed upon by the older Gospel Standard Baptists. Though there is some uniqueness in the preaching of the apostles by direct inspiration and miraculous accompaniment, it is an error to think their exhortations to sinners to repent and believe the gospel is not a pattern for our preaching today. I nevertheless respect each of these names I mentioned.

    Thanks also for linking Philpot's letter of resignation from the Church of England.
     
Loading...