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A challenge for those who disagree with . . .

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 37818, Jul 17, 2019.

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  1. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Dave Gilbert said: Infallible men ( no such thing )?
    At least not before Christ is finished with you.
    Matthew 5:48
    48Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.
    2 Corinthians 11:2
    2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. For I promised you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

    Revelation 14
    The Lamb and the 144,000
    14 Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps, 3 and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.

    You can lean on the "I'm only human thing" And I'll lean on my Beloved who said" BE PERFECT AS YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS PERFECT" His will be done!
     
  2. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Rom 5:15

    But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Eph 2:8

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

    1Pe 1:7

    That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    1Pe 1:8

    Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    1Pe 1:9

    Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of yoursouls.
     
  3. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    It is by the Word of God alone that we KNOW that salvation is by grace through faith alone. We would not know that truth through nature (general revelation). It is by the Scriptures (special revelation) that this is made known to us.

    I don't know how one believe any differently than that.
     
  4. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is God's only means of self-disclosure and the only book by which He tells us how to live. The Bible, as a whole, reveals itself to be the only means by which God fully communicates His will and purpose for our lives. Even the Holy Spirit illuminates the Scriptures to us.

    Jesus constantly quoted from the Scriptures, both in His rebuke of the false teachers in the religious leadership at the time, but also to support His own teachings.

    One of the purposes of the Bible is to be "rule book" as you put it. That is not its only purpose, but it is a book of commandments given to us by God on how to live, like it or not.

    The Bible never holds itself up as one of many ways to follow God. It says in the Psalms that God magnifies the Scriptures above His own Name. That tells you the level of importance He places on it. He doesn't say that about any other text on earth.

    Do you know of any other text by which we would gain spiritual knowledge about God and how to live that would be on equal par with the Bible?
     
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The thief on the cross and all the born again saints of the OT did not have today's scriptures. Nor infants or imbeciles. Salvation is always in the unsolicited New Birth which makes God's word discernible and welcome in whatever amounts are available.
     
  6. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    What in the world is "the unsolicited new birth?" What does that mean?
     
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  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Just as you did not solicit your natural birth, the New Birth is also unsolicited. You had nothing in either.

    ““The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”” John 3:8 (NASB95)
     
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  8. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    That's not what John 3:8 means. John 3:8 is saying that while we cannot see the Holy Spirit we see what He does. Just like the wind, we cannot see it, but we see the effect it has on what can be seen. The Holy Spirit is unseen, but the effects and results of His work is evident.

    But more to the point, why did Jesus always bring people to a place of decision? Why does the Bible say that all who call upon the Lord shall be saved? Why does Paul say that God calls all men to repent?
     
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  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "The Bible is God's only means of self-disclosure and the only book by which He tells us how to live. "

    That is an interesting theory. But scripture scripture says THE CHRISTIAN is the means by which the gospel is spread.


    2 Corinthians 3

    2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


    It is a common error to suppose OUR PERSONAL sense of reliability vs God's prerogative.

    For example if we want a fight a giant we say lets take a TANK not some shepherd kid.

    If God says stay in a glass house during a hail storm, you might think the brick and metal house is safer.


    The IRONY is I'm giving scripture here.. not gut feelings.


    I believe scripture is true, I believe it is right. I believe you can correct anyone with scripture.
    Never-mind inspired, I believe GOD authored scripture. I believe the scripture to be The Body of Christ.
    I think we need to be more disciplined about what it actually says vs what we think it means.


    "Do you know of any other text by which we would gain spiritual knowledge about God and how to live that would be on equal par with the Bible?"
    Yes. The Eucharist and communion of Jesus Christ. Written with people, bread and wine. Visible as even greater than scripture only to the humble. But folks don't much like grammar, language and characters it is written in and with.
    Its the most humble writing of all, even a blind person can read it.

    It doesn't fit our sense of reliability because OUR way is greater than God's way.
     
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We have an abundance of God experts here at the BB - Yes I know.

    Some blather on without carrying a full thought to conclusion in any post yet they themselves thinking they are exceptional.

    Others are edifying indeed - gifted with wisdom and knowledge from the Spirit of God.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are irregular churches that teach otherewise. And so professing to be Christians who believe faith and required work are therefore needed in order to be saved. And so understand Scriptures in that way.

     
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Where is making a decision as a saving work of the flesh found other than in Billy Graham? You must believe (be saved) before deciding anything.
     
  13. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are churches that are falsely called such. They teach a false gospel and they twist the Scriptures to that end.
     
  14. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    Jesus always called people to make a decision. Jesus started that, not Billy Graham.

    Salvation doesn't just happen to you. Nothing in the Bible teaches such a thing.
     
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  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Where?
     
  16. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    But the Christian isn't the source of the revelation of the Gospel. The Christian is transmit that revelation to the world. But the Bible is the only source by which the revelation was revealed to man. It is the only means by which God has made himself known.


    I don't understand how that serves as a refutation of anything I said in my previous remarks. That response makes no sense in the light of what I said.


    And the only infallible source about Communion is the Bible. That's where it is written and the Bible is our only source of revelation about God.

    The Bible is the final arbiter on all matters of Christian faith and practice., contrary to what the Roman cult teaches.

    It doesn't fit our sense of reliability because OUR way is greater than God's way.[/QUOTE]
     
    #56 GoodTidings, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  17. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    The rich young ruler, the woman at the well, the disciples, Paul, Pontius Pilate, Mary and Martha.
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Where do you find today's decision based gospel anywhere in scripture? Jesus discouraged the rich young ruler from trusting in works that he freely chose to perform. He told all of his disciples they could not choose him and many went away.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Consider Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." The Greek requires the understanding "that believeth and is baptized" to be the same person. The religious and lost do not undersand that in no way makes "baptized" a requirement to be saved, because baptism is included in the context and meaning of "believed" in saying, "but he that believeth not shall be damned." Of course one who does not believe is not going to be baptized.
     
    #59 37818, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Actually, none of the verbs here are a command (imperative, grammatically speaking). "Believe" is an aorist active participle in the Greek, with an article before it, and is therefore what is called a substantival participle: a participle acting as a noun. Then, "is baptized" is also substantival, but is a passive, meaning it depends on an agent (not stated here). So, this verse is descriptive, not prescriptive.

    Since one does not baptize one's self in any religion I know of, you cannot "be baptized" (passive, by someone else) to be saved (future passive in this verse). If having someone baptize you saved you, then that would make that person (priest, pastor, whoever) the Savior instead of Jesus.

    Further, the word "baptize" (baptizo in the Greek) means immersion. No group which does not immerse (Presbyterian, Methodist, Catholic) is "obeying" Mark 16:16 anyway. Have you been immersed?
     
    #60 John of Japan, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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