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A challenge for those who disagree with . . .

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 37818, Jul 17, 2019.

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  1. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a "decision-based Gospel." Jesus always brought people to place of decision in His encounters with Him. And I cited some examples.

    You are misquoting Scripture, to boot. The reason that they turned away was because Jesus declared His deity. That's in John 6. Jesus' statement about eating His flesh and drinking His blood was a counter to the Jewish view that the Torah was the spiritual food and drink of the Jew, as the means to eternal life. . Jesus offered Himself as greater than the law, greater than Moses and declared himself to be the giver of eternal life. THAT's why the turned way.

    Furthermore, Jesus did NOT say, "you cannot choose me." What Jesus said was, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." And that was not talking about salvation, but about service. They were not chosen for salvation; to make that verse about salvation, you have to ignore the immediate context.
     
  2. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    No it isn't. The word was preached about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the specific purpose of man's salvation and then spread verbally throughout the world. The Christian Church was then formed and only after that was everything written down. The prophets were also active before the NT and their message was also spread verbally, not just written down and given out for people to read.

    Yes, the Old Testament. So in light of that, please tell us where Jesus said to write the "New Testament" and just give it out so people can figure things out for themselves? The fact is, such a thing never happened - Jesus created a Church, a teaching church to spread the news of his death and resurrection and thus salvation.
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You are arguing interpreation. Those He chose for His service He also chose for salvation. John 6:39; John 15:16; John 17:12; John 18:9.
     
  4. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but Unconditional Election is not biblical.
     
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The election is Biblical, is contitonal and wholly without His elect meriting being His elect. 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

    Unmerited election.
     
  6. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    John 21:24-25
    Jesus and the Beloved Apostle
    …24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. 25There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

    I think we can deduce from this that they were told to write down their experiences, and what they were witness to. Interesting what you acknowledge Adonia:
    GoodTidings Said:"Jesus constantly quoted from the Scriptures,"
    Adonia Said:"Yes, the Old Testament"

    Clearly then, the book of Enoch was something Christ quoted directly from, as did Jude.
    For the unlearned who like to call the Book a fraud, the Qumran community was not a fraud nor are the Christian Ethiopians.

    Also, since the scriptures were compiled from the RCC some centuries later, from Christian communities it is fair to say those who did were fallible to reject what those assemblies clearly studied from. And as for Martin Luther he did not interpret the scriptures he gained through the RCC, men before him did. But he did learn Latin and studied Greek while he was a monk in the RCC, after Hebrew, while during his admiration time for the Jews. That was short lived. It is funny how people here cling to his movement, when history shows they were as violent as the hierarchy of the "Holy " Roman Empire. The loyalty to the father-in-laws is truly bizarre???

    In any case,the RCC acquired scripture , Luther was the recipient of it, he cut everything out of it and designed the old testament according to the Tanakh of Christ hating Jews. NOT THE JEWISH CHRISTIAN'S Canon but the Jews who rejected Christ. Their Bible was not compiled as their form of Canon until around the 2nd century AD. The Torah they had, but the Book of the Prophets they cut out much meat. Those same Jews who rejected Christ also rejected books which affirmed Christ as Messiah. Enoch was the earliest book that did. They removed , as Luther did, a lot of meat concerning the Book of the prophets. Typical , since their fathers are known for killing the prophets sent to them throughout history. Your Luther not only was duped, he also rejected the Jews afterwards. He died an unholy man, without the slightest resemblance of a Christian heart. I would say he was truly an offspring of harlotry as is the rest in his movement.

    The little ones of the RCC, they have never killed for their cause as you forefathers so brutally did. With all your reading , you would think you could see, the two within the One Woman. It is as obvious as Cain and Abel from Eve, Esau and Jacob.

    I challenge any of you to show me ONE denomination that does not have wheat and weeds, goat and sheep, wolves in sheep's clothing and sheep? You won't. Now I challenge you to prove you are for truth ALONE , unity and peace as oppose to division (amongst believers), hate and war. Never mind I got this one too, you are not for truth alone even if scripture alone justifies it. The only thing Protestants have are the scriptures alone and sadly you do not even believe that.
    2 Timothy 4:2-4
    Preach the Word
    …2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.…

    Your doctrines about mother Mary.......a fable. Predestination (as though you know you are )........a fable. Faith separate from works.........a fable, the saints are dead.........a fable. Can't pray to the saints..........a fable. They do not intercede for the church on earth........fable. That you are once saved always saved ( and you know you are for sure even when you did not yet obtain your crown)..........fable, I argue you are not saved at all. Water baptism not a necessary part of salvation......fable.
    Should not baptize infants.........fable! Christ is not present in the Eucharist.........fable. Mother Mary is not the Ark of the New Covenant........FABLE! So forth and so on, etc, etc, etc.........

    That men who follow Christ are called Catholic or Orthodox, or Protestant, Baptist.......fable! Simply Christian which means anointed of the Anointed One , follower of Christ PERIOD!

    Continued........
     
    #66 OfLivingWaters, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  7. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    1 Corinthians 1: 1-Greetings from Paul


    1Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

    2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

    3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thanksgiving


    4I always thank my God for you because of the grace He has given you in Christ Jesus. 5For in Him you have been enriched in every way, in all speech and all knowledge, 6because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you.

    7Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

    Unity in the Church


    10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,”or “I follow Christ.”

    13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else. 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

    The Message of the Cross

    18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

    “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

    20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

    22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

    Wisdom from God

    26Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast in His presence.

    30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

    I am Baptist, I am Catholic, I am Orthodox , I am Protestant, I am Lutheran, I am Presbyterian etc.......
    Nonsense, you are all defiled, you put your denominational doctrine before Christ. You are to be a follower of Christ, that means TRUTH is what you follow! SIMPLY Christian! I am a called out one a redeemed one from among mankind I AM CHRISTIAN, I simple am for truth! What all ,who dare to follow Christ are called and should be. I am faithful and true to Christ, and I do not forego truth for denominational acceptance. I am wheat , my doctrine not a tare, I gather the precious gems and NOT hay, wood and straw. What a moral crisis the world is in. What a terrible condition man is in. Know one loves truth anymore!

    Thank you Lord that I am a Called out Catholic, you called me out. I will preserve all truth. All the denominations are in trouble you have all played the harlot. I am not defiled by women (denominations) because I actually love Christ, I have not bought the lies in them. I AM SIMPLY CHRISTIAN and I recognize His voice that is spoken throughout the History of denominations. They are coming to an end. The End Time Elect have a new name!

    Enjoy what limited time you all have in defilement. I hope it is worth it for you!
    Continued.......
     
  8. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Proverbs :Wisdom Calls Aloud

    20Wisdom calls out in the street,

    she lifts her voice in the square,

    21in the main concourse she cries aloud,

    at the city gates she makes her speech:

    22“How long, O simple ones, will you love your simple ways?

    How long will scoffers delight in their scorn

    and fools hate knowledge?

    23If you had repented at my rebuke,

    then surely I would have poured out my spirit on you;

    I would have made my words known to you.

    24Because you refused my call,

    and no one took my outstretched hand,

    25because you neglected all my counsel,

    and wanted none of my correction,

    26in turn I will mock your calamity;

    I will sneer when terror strikes you,

    27when your dread comes like a storm,

    and your destruction like a whirlwind,

    when distress and anguish overwhelm you.

    28Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;

    they will earnestly seek me, but will not find me.

    29For they hated knowledge

    and chose not to fear the LORD.

    30They accepted none of my counsel;

    they despised all my reproof.

    31So they will eat the fruit of their own way,

    and be filled with their own devices.

    32For the waywardness of the simple will slay them,

    and the complacency of fools will destroy them.

    33But whoever listens to me will dwell in safety,

    secure from the fear of evil.”
     
  9. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    No, I don't think we can deduce that at all. If the written word was the plan, what was the need for anyone else except Jesus? He could have just written down how we should live as Christians and been done with it. The fact is, Jesus said to "go out and preach" about salvation through Him, He never said anything about writing things down.

    Now, I am glad that the Church did indeed record all that Jesus taught and we have the result in the Scriptures, which as you rightly noted was brought about by that very same Church. The real problem began when Bibles were printed and then every newly minted preacher and his resulting Christian sect thought it was interpreting them correctly, when in reality errors abounded.
     
  10. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    That is an idiotic conclusion on your part.

    No. But the Church as per the authority given to it by Jesus Christ Himself has determined that the sprinkling of water on the forehead is sufficient to effect the sacrament of baptism which is done according to the proscribed method which is: "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost" by the priest acting in the person of Christ.
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So you say. But I'm arguing from the grammar of the sentence. If you wish to call my conclusion idiotic, fine, but that's not an argument. Please show me exactly how my conclusion is idiotic. A passive tense in Greek or English must have an agent: "I was baptized...." Okay, by who? The priest? If baptism saves you, and you were baptized by the priest, then he is the instrument, the agent of your salvation. That is not only proper grammar, it's a logical syllogism.

    The sprinkling of water on the forehead is not "baptism" as per the meaning of the Greek word. I could give you quotes from any of my many Greek-English lexicons to prove that. Here are several from my BibleWorks software:

    Friberg: "strictly dip, immerse in water"
    Thayer: "properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge"
    LS classical Greek: "to dip in or under water"

    So if you have merely been sprinkled and not immersed, you have not been baptized. Christ gave us the Great Commission, showing baptism as vital. And He used the Greek word I'm defining here. So if the church sprinkles but does not immerse, it is not obeying Christ.
     
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  12. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Good to here you're glad.:rolleyes:
    No the RCC is not the very same Church as the first, The first church is not gentile but of the Jews. The church of Rome is a grafted in gentile Church. So stop the lie and conceit . Now the true agenda of this forum will unfold. Everything the RCC acquired is FROM THE JEWS, Period.
    Romans 1 :15-17
    Unashamed of the Gospel
    15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome. 16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek. 17For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”…

    First to the Jew then the Greek , then the Roman. Paul is clear. He indicates that he has preached among his kin JEWS, then the Greek and is now eager to preach in Rome. The First Church had written works in which they shared amongst fellow Jews. Then of course as they gospel spread through preaching they penned works to their converts.

    Either way makes no difference to the fact that the RCC is NOT the first church or original branch and tree. Better get to studying. Maybe I should call this Baptist Boards (aka Catholic Boards)- which shows the stupidity of the Protestants so that the RCC looks really good. In any case, the RCC is not the root, Tree or original branch remember that. You speak in conceit, Harlot.
    Romans 11:1-36
    The Remnant of Israel

    1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well” ?

    4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

    5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

    7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,

    eyes that could not see,

    and ears that could not hear,

    to this very day.”

    9And David says:

    “May their table become a snare and a trap,

    a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

    10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

    and their backs be bent forever.”

    The Ingrafting of the Gentiles

    11I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

    13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

    22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    All Israel Shall Be Saved

    25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    THAT NUMBER IS COMPLETE! The last 144,000 Rev.14 are accounted for. And since you are not preaching the New Song, I can assure you, you are counted among those in the Harlot..

    REV.14 is woven with this.
    “The Deliverer will come from Zion;

    He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

    27And this is My covenant with them

    when I take away their sins.”

    28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

    30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

    A Hymn of Praise

    33O, the depth of the riches

    of the wisdom and knowledge of God!

    How unsearchable His judgments,

    and untraceable His ways!

    34“Who has known the mind of the Lord?

    Or who has been His counselor?”

    35“Who has first given to God,

    that God should repay him?”

    36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

    To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So far no one who disagrees with the interpretation that it is by the written word of God alone in which salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone, has given the reasons for that belief. A few objections, yes.

    The simple truth is, one cannot explain what one does not comprhend. And that will also account for not agreeing with it. One cannot believe something not understood or known.
     
  14. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I have a question:

    How did the "Church" ( which I see that you refer to the Roman Catholic Church as "the Church" ), go from interpreting the Scriptures one way... condemning Pelagianism during the Councils of Carthage, to teaching a very closely-related version of it... "Semi-Pelagianism", within the next 1,000 years?

    They had the same Latin Vulgate Bible that Jerome translated in 405, up until the 1600's.
    Before 405, they had the Old Latin.
     
    #74 Dave Gilbert, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  15. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    Luke 24:45.
     
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  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    My point being, that you seem to think that the "The Church" is correct in its teachings,
    And every "newly minted preacher and his resulting Christian sect" is not...when the very same institution that you consider to be "the Church", did the very same thing with the only Bible that they had available to them for over 1,200 years.

    They went from interpreting how salvation works one way, to deciding against it and teaching the opposite.
     
  17. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    The you would also be saying that when Jesus was baptized by John, that he John was the instrument, the agent of Christ's salvation? (Even though He was the one bringing salvation). Or, that when a Baptist preacher takes ahold of a person and dunks him/her in the water, then that preacher would be the instrument, the agent of that person's salvation? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

    A person does not baptize oneself, there needs to be another person as the baptizer. A person is baptized (at least in my faith tradition) in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and not in the name of, or for, the person doing the baptizing.
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You're right, it makes no sense at all because I don't believe that baptism brings salvation. You appear to be mixed up. You are the one who believes that baptism is a sacrament, not me. :) In fact, I don't believe in any sacraments at all. Only Christ can save, not any human works. I believe, being a Baptist, that baptism is a mere symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:3-4). When a preacher or priest merely sprinkles, that symbolism is lost.

    Remember the thief on the cross? Christ promised him paradise, even though he had none of the sacraments.
    That is precisely my point. "Be baptized" is passive, meaning there must be an agent. And we also believe in baptism in the name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. As a missionary to Japan, that is exactly how I baptized (immersed) new believers in Christ. In fact, once I built a home-made baptistry right in our tiny apartment so that I could baptize (immerse) a young lady who had recently trusted Christ. I remember with great fondness many others who I baptized: Usuki the gangster, Ueno the train man, my son, etc.
     
  19. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    What, you don't believe in sacred things like marriage and ordination? Well I do, they all make sense to me.

    Of course the thief didn't need any of them, he had God Incarnate Himself opening the door to heaven for him that very day. Any sacrament would be irrelevant in this instance.

    I think we are on the same page here. Someone must do the baptizing and do so in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That is your belief and also mine.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A side note. Modern Baptists do not and 1st century Christians did not believe in Sacraments.
     
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