Enjoying your posts full of grace and truth...I notice not one of those who oppose themselves can stay on point, they drift off when you turn up the heat
:laugh::wavey::thumbsup:
A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Jul 9, 2015.
Page 13 of 16
-
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
Quoting well thought out arguments would be a different situation.
It is better to either quote a well thought out answer, or to give one yourself, not an emotional attack.
I have given links on specific topics before. Instead of refuting them people just got indignant and upset. But the material was never refuted. (The topic was "neo-Calvinism," in which Albert Moehler is involved). That is just an example. -
I wanted to jump in about half way through but did not want to read all the posts and certainly did not want to be accused of jumping around like a dog. Of course correctly written DoG stands for Doctrines of Grace so don't take DHK seriously. He likely was paying you a compliment!
That being said the OP is excellent and Protestant presents some of the best arguments/rebuttals of anyone on this BB. -
In a number of your ludicrous links they did not have even a single mention of your flaky charges.
It was especially evident in your crazy accusation that the majority of Presbyterians are swallowed up in hyper-Calvinism. That took the proverbial take. -
-
As I recall I believe you were one of the ones that got upset at the neoCalvinist link but could do nothing to disprove it. Your emotions don't really do you much good in a debate. -
-
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You have offered links of a premill nature that were orthodox.....
I believe when I post solid links you cannot answer them ,,,plain and simple.
You have never proven otherwise....if you could.....I would listen.
Most times you announce to the world that you are not going to look at the link, or listen to the sermon.....I look at your links so whats the problem?
DHK....do you want truth?.....or do you just want to be right?
I have not seen AL Moehler write or preach anything that was questionable.....I have learned from Him. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
This is a debate Forum. I have been in the ministry for 40+ years. I know the truth. If you differ with me then that is fine. What you say or read isn't going to change what I have been teaching for most of my life.
-
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
You are saying you will not be open to learn truth if someone offers you anything different from what you have already been taught???? what if you are wrong???? The men I offer to you read from the greek text....they know more than both of us combined.....You need to humble yourself perhaps:wavey:
The article linked him to one example of some contempory junk.....it did not say he was promoting it...he probably just did not oppose it....it was very vague...do you have a full length sermon or a full article that he himself wrote that would demonstrate your claim....I have heard him about 20 times and he is an able minister of the new covenant. I would trust him way before 20 fundamentalist KJO types. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Non, mon ami, non. That is not a play on words our blest Savior was saying. It was/is a biblical fact that Jesus replied, “This is the work of God—that you believe in the One He has sent.” [Jn 6:29] Faith is not a work of man, oui. If faith was a work, then salvation, which comes with faith being exercised, is not grace but merit. But it is a fruit of the Spirit.
As I already showed you, in Heb. 12:2, it states that God is the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith. The KJV states is as the Author and Finisher of our faith. That would 'Author'/'Pioneer' means the chief leader, prince, of Christ, one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer, the author. None of these renderings show it dwelling inside man mon ami. And 'finisher'/'Perfecter' means a perfector', one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith. Again, this in no way shows faith residing within man, monsieur.
Reread Galatians 5, mon ami. You will see Paul warning them to not Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.[vs 2] Some of the Jews were telling men the necessity of being circumcised, and Paul was telling them not to. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.[vss 3,4] Those who would go ahead and be circumcised were going to do so against the clear biblical teachings of Paul. I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Then at the end of the chapter Paul states The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.[vss 19-21] Paul is telling them what the works of the flesh are. None of these characteristics are edifying to another Christian and also God. No one will exhibit all of these traits, but they do possess some of them monsieur. Not every sinner is sexually immoral, not every sinner is a liar, not every sinner is selfish, not every sinner is into drunkenness, not every sinner partakes in orgies, not every sinner has fits of rage, not every sinner is jealous, but sinners are those types of peoples, just not all of those characteristics rolled up into one. Then Paul finishes up this chapter(I know he never wrote in 'book, chapter, verse style') by writing But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.[vss 22-26] He is comparing the vileness of sinners, who live in the flesh, who live carnally,:)D) with the walk of the Christian. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, yes. Now, you say that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, that sinners must exercise faith. So, if faith is a fruit of the Spirit and sinners must exercise faith, then is there another faith that sinners have that God does not? :confused:
Think about it. You say that sinners must exercise faith, of which I completely agree with. Now, if faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and God does not give faith to sinners, then what faith do they, being sinners, exercise? :confused:
Continued on another post. Afraid this will be too lengthy. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
What I have been taught?? What did I just tell you? I have been in the ministry for 40+ years. Do you think I am relying on what I "have been taught" or perhaps "what the Holy Spirit has taught me." I don't rely on what man (like Calvin) teaches. I am not wrong. I have studied Greek. I am not as proficient in it as some others, but I do have plenty of resources at my disposal. One thing I learned many years ago. A person is able to make the Greek say anything he wants to say. The Greek is not the guideline by which we test scripture. It only adds one small dimension to our interpretation of scripture. There are other factors to take into consideration. These other factors are often what Calvinists miss because of their own pre-disposed bias.
-
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
(This is what you referred back to in #214).
The KJV has the definite article in front of it as referring to a definite body of truth, as most commentaries I have read also refer to it.
For example, A.T. Robertson:
¶ αγαπητοι πασαν σπουδην ποιουμενος γραφειν υμιν περι της κοινης σωτηριας αναγκην εσχον γραψαι υμιν παρακαλων επαγωνιζεσθαι τη απαξ παραδοθειση τοις αγιοις πιστει
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine
There are many definitions of pistis. The second definition fits quite well in this context.
The ESV which you quoted above says:
contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
--And so do most of the other translations.
I don't understand your objection here.
First, chapter 11: We are shown a great stadium of witness--heroes of "the faith."
Second, We are told: "Therefore, ...run this race that is set before us."
Third, "looking unto Jesus" (our example) who pioneered the way for us, and ran it for us and completed it for us. He is our Great Example. He sets before them an example to follow while running this race lest they be discouraged. It is the perfect example, the perfect One, who ran perfectly--from beginning to end. "Look to him." Run the race. Walk the walk (of faith). Don't give up.
It is the object of one's faith that is important. The unsaved will put their faith in some thing or person other than Christ.
A saved person will put their faith in Christ, as Hebrews 12 teaches us.
"Looking unto Jesus."
"Consider Him, who endured such contradiction of sinners..."
The object of their faith was not to be their own discouragement, but rather Jesus. They were to focus on Christ.
The question is: Can an unsaved person put their faith in Christ?
The Calvinist says he must be "forced" to do so (i.e., Irresistible Grace).
The non-Cal says, no this doctrine is wrong. Jesus invites all to freely come to Him. He doesn't need to be forced by God. He is not reprobated to Hell. He is invited freely to come. "Whosoever will may come." -
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 3-4)
The Online Etymology Dictionary discovers its origin from Middle French or Later Latin and is interpreted as “lewd, playful, frolicsome, wanton.”
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lascivious
The false prophets were perverting the Gospel of God’s grace by turning it into the heresy of carnal Christianity.
The heresy of carnal Christianity ultimately denies the very Savior they claim as Lord.
Carnal Christianity takes many forms including sensual lewdness.
It can also take form of carnal Entertainment posing as Christian worship.
And it can take the form of carnal decisional regeneration.
Jude recognizes the eternal reprobation of these carnal false prophets when he states they were of old ordained for condemnation.
Paul speaks of such as vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
Such false prophets are at work today.
But we are not unaware of who they are and what they teach. -
NEVER as to if we keep or l;ose our eternal life, so the "inverstigative judgement" of the SDA as to if we stay saved ot not is heresy!
And she did NOT get this from God! -
Salvation is "the faith" which we believe.
The false teachers denied "the faith" which we believe.
Every commentator I have read agrees with me. I have already quoted A.T. Robertson, and his position using the Greek.
Here is Barnes:
-
I can freely admit that Christ did not "feel that" reality on the cross since the Father was veiled from Christ just then - but He was never-the-less suffering - never-the-less God, never-the-less omnipresent never-the-less in Christ,
God was in Christ reconciling "the WORLD" not "THE FEW of Matt 7" - according to the Bible.
Thus God "sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
We Arminians say this -
"14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." -- yes "really".
"God so Loved the World" -- yes really
"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 -
Because in the free will system that God sovereignly chose we we have this
Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
it all fits together.
It all works.
Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Romans 10 is not an "addition to scripture" it IS scripture.
Rom 10
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
John 1 is not an "addition to scripture" - it IS scripture.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Is 5:4 is not an "addition to scripture" Is 5:4 IS scripture
Is 5
“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
1 John 4:14 "The Savior of the World"
John 1 "The World was MADE by Him"
John 3:16 "God so loved the World".
John is pretty clear on this point - not so sure that is also true of Rippon.
"we BEG you on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" --
The Bible does not say "God did not suffer", labor, and even cry out in frustration as in
Is 5
“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
The cross is not where God "gets paid" it is where "God is tortured" - it is God that provides the blood sacrifice for mankind's sin - not an underling - "God so Loved that HE GAVE"
Adding 'oh no He did not" is not a compelling answer to the problem this poses for that particular flavor of Calvinism.
I am not sure you appreciate just how much I am enjoying this discussion. I do not object to Calvinism promoting a different opinion - I just think the Bible gives a better one.
in Christ,
Bob -
Until I receive substantive responses to my substantive questions, I must concentrate on other concerns which require my attention.
Have a great day!
Page 13 of 16