A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

I don't understand why so many people believe that they can pull these two verses out of context from the entire letter that Paul was writing. Saying that we are saved by faith alone is taking away from the grace of God and putting to much emphasis on our own abilities of faith.

I'll even use KJV.
Starting in chapter 1:6-7 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace."
Eph. 2:4-5 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

Eph. 2:7 "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Also, the gift of God is not faith. The gift of God is His grace. Read Eph. chapters 3-5

Now let's look at Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Now for the proper understanding of the role of works in our salvation. Works of the Law or good deeds done apart from Christ cannot save us. We cannot "buy our way into heaven" by doing good works. But when Christ saves us by His grace through faith (Eph. 2:8) He makes us a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and performs good deeds through and with us.

These works are the "fruit" we bear because we are connected to Christ the Vine (John 15:1-8).

They are different from the good deeds done apart from Christ by those trying to buy their way into heaven. For these are the works of God Himself, Who dwells in us!

We cannot save ourselves by our works apart from Christ, but when we are saved God's works in and through us are the fruit and proof of our salvation (see James 2:14-26).

 

DHK,

Couldnt agree more. God could not possibly be clearer. Its so sad to see people adding to Gods truth in this repect, when the truth of justification through faith alone is simply thundered from the scriptures.

I personally believe it is the inherant pride in the human heart that simply must feel that it is contributing to being saved. Our pride must feel that God is letting us in because we are "good" enough.

God bless,

Mike

 

I said this earlier in the thread, but I think it bears repeating:

A personal relationship with Christ is all you need for salvation. However, it is not all you need to live a Godly life. Furthermore, a Christian who refuses to engage in good works is a spiritual hypocrite.

 

God could not possibly be clearer that we are saved by His Grace.

We have to have faith to accept his free gift of grace. We are not justified by faith alone.

Let's look at Joe Schmoe and Jon Doe who work together at the plant and who both state that they have faith in God, have made a public profession of faith, and claim to be "born again Christians".

Joe's language is full of obsenities, racial slurs, and degrading to women. He steals from his company by spending too much time by the water cooler telling the latest dirty jokes that he has heard or what he would like to do to the gal in payroll. He lies by taking credit for other people's ideas. His motto is "look out for number one" and "Step on, or be stepped on." He is completely self serving and does not show compassion to anyone else.

Jon on the other hand, prays everyday for God's grace to see the needs of others. Jon asks God to open his eyes for the chance to assist others throughout the day. He also prays that his actions (or works) will glorify God and show Christ living through his life.

Now on the day of their judgment, who will God say, "well done thy good and faithful servant" to and who will God say, "Depart from me ye who work inquity for I never knew you"?

Eph. 6:6-8 "Not with eyeservice, as manpleasers; but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free."

Take a look at Gal. chapters 5 and 6 for the difference between the works of the flesh and the works (or fruits) of the Spirit.

 

OK, do you eat meat on Friday----now, or do you not eat meat because the church you attend tells you not to? This is work. There is no faith. It is done as a matter of "church" law.

 

No, I don't eat meat on Fridays during Lent. I personally don't see what the big deal is.
Although I love meat, I will gladly give up one day of not eating meat. I personally don't believe it's healthy for a person to eat meat every day. Especially with ecoli and what not.

 

Living4Him,

You said...

Well, God will let anyone trust in any man made false theology they want, but regarding this topic, God says different....

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation,having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Of course, thats just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg.

God bless,

Mike

 

And of course, I believe someone on here brought up that tired old *supposed* James contradiction.

Here is some good stuff regarding that...

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" James 2:14. In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement.

It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19).

Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"

If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

Conclusion

Justification is by faith.

True faith results in regeneration of the sinner which, in turn, results in good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor keep it. Jesus accomplished that on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross. This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.

From...www.carm.org/doctrine/justification_verses.htm

God bless,

Mike

 

Grace: Is a supernatural gift from GOD.
Sanctifying grace dwells in the soul and gives it supernatural life. It makes us pleasing to GOD (CCC 2024). It comes to us through prayer and the sacraments. If we have sanctifying grace indwelling our soul when we die, then we go to Heaven. Sanctifying grace is lost if we are in mortal sin (Trent, session 6, chapter V). If this happens, it is spiritual death for the soul. How can we regain Sanctifying grace? We regain it through the sacraments of reconciliation and the Holy Eucharist.

Actual grace are graces that move us or prod us into doing the things which we should be doing, such as trying to regain Sanctifying grace (Trent, session 6, chapter V).

"For without Me, you can do nothing." John 15:5

"With men, this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible." Matt 19:26

"I can do all things in Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

"...No one can receive anything unless it is given to him from Heaven." John 3:27

"And He said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for strength is made perfect in weakness'." 2Cor 12:9

"I give thanks to my GOD always concerning you for the grace of GOD which was given you in Christ Jesus..." 1Cor 1:4

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, for it is the gift of GOD..." Eph 2:8

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's bestowal." Eph 4:7
"And of His fullness we have all received grace for grace." John 1:16
Grace is a free gift from GOD, and a sufficient amount is given to each and every one of us for our salvation. Without it, we can do nothing at all. We cannot 'save' ourselves without the help of GOD.

Faith: Is the assent given to GOD's truth. 1Thes 2:13
"Faith, however, is believing what you do not yet see; to which faith the reward is seeing what you believe." St. Augustine, Sermons 43:1

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [GOD]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end.'" CCC 161, Matt 10:22,24:13, Heb 11:6.
(Trent, session 6, chapter VIII)

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Heb 11:1

"Without faith it is impossible to please GOD." Heb 11:6

"Faith then depends on hearing, and hearing on the Word of Christ." Rom 10:17
(Trent, session 6, chapter VI)

"Yet when the Son of Man comes, will He find, do you think, faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
Faith is of great importance to GOD.

"Through Him we have received the grace of Apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith." Rom 1:5
Faith is being obedient to GOD.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any avail, nor uncircumcision, but faith which works through charity." Gal 5:6.
Faith, therefore, works through love.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity (love), I am nothing." 1Cor 13:2.
Faith, however, is interwoven with love. Faith without love is useless. After reading that verse, how could anyone say they are saved by Faith only, or alone?

"Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences." 1Tim 4:1. See also 1Tim 1:19,5:8,6:10 and 6:21.
Faith can be lost.

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in faith." 2Cor 13:5

Works: We work out what GOD works in our hearts. Works are the fruit of faith. As already mentioned, "We work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Whenever St. Paul said works are not needed, he was referring to the old Mosaic Law or works of darkness. He did not mean the good works rendered by the Law of Grace (Trent, session 6, chapter 4) of the New Covenant..

In Matt 25:31-46 are many examples of doing good works, proclaimed by Jesus Christ. There is the separation of the sheep from the goats which relate to, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned, and more. Notice that both the sheep and the goats believed, but only the sheep did good works. In verse 46, Jesus cautioned as to what will be the reward of those who do not do these things, and of those who do, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."

"Work as a preacher of the Gospel, fulfill your ministry." 2Tim 4:5

"Work for upbuilding and not for destruction." 2Cor 13:10

"Work from the heart as for the Lord, and not for men." Col 3:23

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12. See also 1Cor 9:24-27.

"For His workmanship we are, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which GOD has made ready beforehand that we may walk in them." Eph 2:10

"And if you invoke as Father him who without respect of persons judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves with fear in the time of your sojourning." 1Pet 1:17

"There are just men and wise men, and their works are in the hand of GOD." Eccl 9:1

"...who will render to every man according to his works." Rom 2:6

"But their end will be according to their works." 2Cor 11:15

"For GOD shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl 12:14

"Tribulation and anguish shall be visited upon the soul of every man who works evil; of Jew first and then of Greek. But glory and honor and peace shall be awarded to everyone who does good to Jew first and then of Greek." Rom 2:9-10

"...we should love one another; not like Cain, who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. And wherefore did he kill him? Because his own works were wicked, but his brother's just." 1Jn 3:11-12

"But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hat, straw, the work of each will be made manifest, for the Day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive his reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1Cor 3:13-15

These four preceding verses lay it on the line that every one's works will surely be tested, and reward or punishment will follow.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 7:21

"Now we know that GOD does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of GOD, AND DOES HIS WILL , him He hears." John 9:31

"But why do you call Me, 'Lord, 'Lord', and do not practice the things that I say?" Luke 6:46

"But he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, for they have been performed in GOD." John 3:21

"Esteem them with a more abundant love on account of their work." 1Thes 5:13

"If anyone, therefore, has cleansed himself from these, he will be a vessel for honorable use, sanctified and useful to the Lord, ready for every good work." 2Tim 2:21

"Let them do good and be rich in good works, giving readily, sharing with others." 1Tim 6:18

"This saying is true, and concerning these things I desire you to insist, that they who believe in GOD may be careful to excel in good works." Tit 3:8

"And let out children also learn to excel in good works, in order to meet cases of necessity, so that they may not be unfruitful." Tit 3:14

"...looking for the blessed hope and glorious coming of our great GOD and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and cleanse for Himself an acceptable people, pursuing good works." Tit 2:13-14

"Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain... On the contrary, let us conduct ourselves in all circumstances as GOD's ministers, in much patience; in tribulations, in hardships, in distress; in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults; in labors..."
2Cor 6:1,5

"May you walk worthily of GOD and please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of GOD." Col 1:10

"Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, whereas he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let everyone test his own work, so he will have glory in himself only, and not in comparison with another. For each one will bear his own burden." Gal 6:2-5

"And they who have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment." John 5:29

"If you know that he is just, know that everyone also who does what is just has been born of Him." 1John 2:29

"Therefore, he who knows how to do good, and does not do it, commits a sin." Jam 4:17
This is called the sin of omission. Matt 25:37-40 has more examples of sins of omission.

"And concerning these (evil works) I warn you, that they who do (evil works) such things will not attain the kingdom of GOD." Gal 5:21 (read from verse 16 for context).

"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore where you have fallen, and repent and do the former works; or else I will come to you, and will move your lamp-stand out of its place, unless you repent." Rev 2:4-5

"I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, but which were ready to die. For I do not find your works complete before my GOD." Rev 3:1-2

"Alexander, the coppersmith, has done me much harm; the Lord will render him according to his deeds." 2Tim 4:14

"My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth."
1Jn 3:18

"I know your works, your faith, your love, your ministry, your patience, and your last works, which are more numerous than the former." Rev 2:19

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying, 'Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, FOR THEIR WORKS FOLLOW THEM'." Rev 14:13
The works which you do in this life will follow you forever.

"I know your works and your labor and your patience, and that you cannot bear evil men;" Rev 2:2

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the scrolls, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." Rev 20:12

"And her children I will strike with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches desires and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works." Rev 2:23

"Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS." Rev 22:12

"And the world with its lust is passing away, but he who does the will of GOD abides forever." 1John 2:17

"And he who overcomes, and who keeps My works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations." Rev 2:26

"I know your works, Behold, I have caused a door to be opened before you which no one can shut, for you have scanty strength, and you have kept My word and have not disowned My name." Rev 3:8

With all of these verses in support of doing good works, how can anyone say works are not required for salvation?

Grace AND Faith:
"They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom GOD has set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith, to manifest His justice,..." Rom 3:24-25

"By whom we also have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of GOD." Rom 5:2

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as GOD has dealt to every man the measure of faith." Rom 12:3

Now Grace 'anded' together with faith enters into the equation.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, for it is the gift of GOD." Eph 2:8

"So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy to be used according to the proportion of faith." Rom 12:5-6

"Now as you abound in everything in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that you abound in this grace also." 2Cor 8:7

"And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant with faith and love which is in Jesus Christ." 1Tim 1:14

"To Titus, my own son after the common faith: grace, mercy and peace, from GOD the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." Tit 1:4

So now it is grace AND faith, not grace OR faith.
These verses refute "Sola Fides" (saved by faith only).

Grace AND Works:
"But by the grace of GOD I am what I am, and His grace in me has not been fruitless, in fact I have labored (worked) more than any of them, yet not I, but the grace of GOD with me." 1Cor 15:10
GOD expects fruit to be produced in the form of good works, by His freely given grace.

"And they sailed to Antioch, from where they had been recommended to the grace of GOD for the work which they fulfilled." Acts 14:26

"Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain." 2Cor 6:1
Here we see that there is danger of receiving grace from GOD and we not responding with works.

"And GOD is able to make all grace abound toward you; that always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." 2Cor 9:8

So now it is grace AND works, not grace OR works.

Faith AND Works:
"What does it profit, my brethren, even though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" James 2:14

"Even so faith if it has not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17
Faith 'alone' is a Protestant teaching called 'Sola Fides', and has never been a teaching of the Catholic Church.

"Yes, a man may say, you have faith and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18

"But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20

"Do you see that faith worked along with his works, and by the works the faith was made perfect?" James 2:22
I would say that one verse says it all.

"You see then how that by works, a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24
Goodbye 'Sola Fides'.

"So as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26
What more could St. James have said to make it any clearer that faith and works go hand in hand?
These verses could not have been written any plainer, no works begets no faith. Why did St. James repeat himself in so many verses? Why does anyone repeat himself? They do it to drive home an important point.
Is it any wonder that Martin Luther called the Book of James a 'straw epistle'? He removed it from its rightful position in his German translation of the New Testament, along with Hebrews, Jude, and Revelations, and placed them in an unpaginated index. These verses in James destroy his teaching of 'Sola Fides'.

Grace AND Faith AND Works:
I have shown many Bible verses which reference Grace and Faith, Grace and Works, and Faith and Works. From a study of these verses, it is obvious that GOD's plan of salvation requires our cooperation with Him by our good works in return for His freely given gifts.

Grace NOR (not 'or') the Law:We are not under the Law* as the Jews were, but we are under the Grace of GOD in the New Covenant.

*The Law referred to in the New Testament is the Law of Moses unless qualified further as the Law of Christ.

"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:17

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matt 5:17

"For sin shall not have dominion over you; for YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE." Romans 6:14

"What then? Are we to sin because we are NOT under the Law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:15

"Moreover the Law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Rom 5:20

"I do not frustrate the grace of GOD, for if righteousness come by the Law, then Christ died in vain." Gal 2:21

"You who would be justified in the Law are estranged from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Gal 5:4

These verses have made it quite clear that we do not achieve salvation under the Law of Moses, but under the new 'Law of Grace'

Faith NOR (not 'or') the Law:We are justified by faith and not by the Law.

"For the promise that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the Law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect." Rom 4:13-14

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law." Rom 3:27-28

"But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the Law is not of faith: but the man that does them shall live in them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree:' that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Gal 3:11-14

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles (that is us folks, anyone who is not a Jew), which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, have not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:30-32. See Gal 2:16 in the next paragraph.

Grace OR Faith NOR / NAND Works:'Nor' in boolean algebra is NOT 'OR', 'Nand' is NOT 'AND'. Essentially the phrase means grace or faith but never works. This is Protestant teaching. Here are some verses which trip the Protestant viewpoints...

"But we know that man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Hence we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and NOT by the works of the Law." Gal 2:16

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD. Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9
This verse refers to human works only, without the benefit of grace or faith. Some Protestants charge that Catholics believe they are saved by works. This verse shows this not to be true.

"For those who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written 'Cursed is everyone who does not hold to all things that are written in the book of the Law, to perform them'. But that by the Law no man is justified before GOD is evident, because 'he who is just lives by faith'. But THE LAW DOES NOT REST ON FAITH; but, 'he who does these things, shall live by them'. Christ redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW..." Gal 3:10-13

"For we reckon that a man is justified by faith (alone*) independently of the works of the Law." Rom 3:28. *The word 'alone' was injected by Martin Luther in his German translation of Romans in order to provide support for HIS instruction of 'Sola Fides'. The word is not in the Greek transcripts.

Some Protestants say these verses above 'prove' that works are not needed. However, these verses refer only to works under the Law, and not to works under grace.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, for it is the gift of GOD; not as the outcome of works, lest anyone may boast. For His workmanship we are, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which GOD has made ready beforehand that we may walk in them." Eph 2:8-10

"He has redeemed us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and the grace which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world existed." 2Tim 1:9

"But when the goodness and kindness of GOD our Savior appeared, then not by reason of good works that we did ourselves, but according to His mercy, he saved us through the bath of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Tit 3:4-5

What these three verses say is that mere human works will not achieve salvation by itself without the gifts of faith and the grace of GOD.

In A Nutshell:Good works are needed along with faith...
Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation? Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies? (See the note on Romans 3:28 above. The word 'alone' was injected by Martin Luther in his translation. If St. Paul, who writes fluently and uses many approaches to explain justification by faith, and who uses the words 'faith' and 'alone' many times in this very Epistle, meant to write 'Faith Alone', he most assuredly would have done so). Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ.
What Our Lord demands is 'faith which works through charity'. (Gal 5:6).
Read Mt 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity.
The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself, (Mk 12:30-31).
"For God has done what the Law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the Law might be FULFILLED IN US, who walk NOT according to the FLESH but according to the SPIRIT." Rom 8:3-4.
"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:13-14
Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, 'For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the Law' (Gal 2:16), he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.
The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace, that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (Jn 15:4-6), only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of GOD and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ.
Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by GOD, but are necessary for salvation.
St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation:
'But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel', (1Tim 5:8).
Our Lord tells us that if the Master (GOD) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He 'shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers', (Lk 12:46).
Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works.
Our Lord Himself said:
'For the Son of man...will render to every man according to his works', (Mt 16:27).
'And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward', (Mt 10:42).
Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that 'every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor', (1Cor 3:8).
'For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints', (Heb 6:10).
'I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming', (2Tim 4:7-8).
Still, Catholics know that, strictly speaking, God never owes us anything. Even after obeying all God's commandments, we must still say:
'We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do', (Lk 17:10).
As St. Augustine stated: 'All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but His gifts'. Had St. Paul meant that faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, he would not have written:
'...and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing', (1Cor 13:2).
If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle James would not have written:
'Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only'?...For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead', (James 2:24-26).
Or: 'What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him'? (James 2:14).
If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle Peter would not have written: 'Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ', (2Pet 1:10-11). If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the primitive Christian Fathers would not have advocated good works in such powerful words...

Wrote St. Irenaeus, one of the most illustrious of the primitive Christian Fathers:
"For what is the use of knowing the truth in word, while defiling the body and accomplishing the works of evil? Or what real good at all can bodily holiness do, if truth be not in the soul? For these two, faith and good works, rejoice in each other's company, and agree together and fight side by side to set man in the Presence of God", (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching).

In Summation:
1. Are we saved by Grace Alone?
Yes, as this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Grace is a gift from GOD. It is given freely to us, but in return He expects us to do our part by our performance of Good Works.

2. Are we saved by Faith Only?
No, this is "Sola Fides", and it is taught by a few Protestant sects. It is impossible, for salvation by Faith alone, for we can do nothing of ourselves without the Grace of GOD, and again Good Works. The only verse in the entire Bible where the words Faith and Only appear together is in James 2:24 where he said, "You see that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only."

3. Are we saved by Works Alone?
No. Mere human works are useless without the grace of GOD and faith working through love.

4. Can we say we are "Saved" by just accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior?
No. This is what some Protestant sects teach, Baptists especially. This teaching excludes doing Good Works and essentially says that as long as we accept Jesus Christ, we can do anything we want to do. If this teaching were true, then what is the purpose of the Ten Commandments (Trent, session 6, chapter XI)? Why did Jesus Christ say, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven; BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." Matt 7:21.
Now how can anyone DO the will of the Father without doing Good Works?

5. Salvation is an on going process...
We were saved in the past: Rom 5:1-2, 8:24, Eph 2:5-9.
We are being saved now: 1Cor 1:18, 1Cor 15:2, Phil 2:12, Heb 10:14, 1Pet 1:8-9, 1Pet 2:1-2.
We will be saved in the future: Matt 10:22, 24:13, Rom 6:16, 13:11, 1Cor 3:15, 5:5, Gal 2:17,
Gal 5:4-5, Rev 21:6-7.

We can also lose our salvation: Matt 6:14-15, *7:21, 24:44-51, 25:31-46, Mark 11:26, Luke 10:16,
John 14:21, Rom 11:22, Rev 21:8, 21:27.

Justification by Faith Alone, is a Protestant teaching.
It was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century.

Works are the fruit of Faith, but a necessary fruit... Rosalind Moss
We work out what GOD works in our hearts.
Faith plus Works equals Faith working through Love.
Galatians 5:6

See http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/works.htm

 

Nice copy and paste from Catholic sites and catechism, but you really don't do justice in answering Mike's post.
DHK

 

I thought I answered his post. He was providing verses that dealt with faith only for justification. I showed plenty of scripture that states, grace, faith, and works.

While he may hold to the belief that it is faith only that justifies, I will hold to the belief that it is all three working together.

The scriptures do not contradict themselves. I choose to apply all the scriptures together for the full and complete picture.

 

I will ask the question(s) again for those who think that works are necassary for salvation:

1. What is a good work?
2. How many good works does on need for salvation?
3. It is a debit system (ie: does a one good work (are they scaled) get nullified by one bad work)?
4. What about intent in the good work?

Answering those questions would be spiffy (hint: 'asnwering' the questions with a question is not an answer).

jason

 

Are you saying that I can't answer with a question like:

1) What is faith that saves?

2) How much faith does it take to be saved?

3) Is it a debit system where a moment of doubt offsets a prior moment of faith?

4) What about the intent of faith?

Your questions are a lot like asking, "How high is up?"

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying you cannot answer with.

logical fallacy this time: strawman and red herring (congrats for using both!)

Sort of. It would be more appropriate if there was a statment like this:

"To be a pilot, one must have left the ground for some time and achieved a certain altitude. Only pilots are saved. "

Now...wouldn't you think it would be vitally important to know exactly what the definitions of 'some' and 'a certain' are in the previous statement? I certainly think it would be important.

Now, what if the one organization that makes these claims will not and cannot give the meaning behind 'some' and 'a certain'? What would you think about that organization and their claim?

jason

 

Jason, you seem to be saying that for someone to hold the position that both faith and works are necessary for salvation is silly because works cannot be objectively measured...

while believing that holding the position that only faith is necessary for salvation is just fine...

even though faith cannot be objectively measure.

What's up with that?

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguement?

 

You said before that you take things on faith. You take quite a bit on faith....

Well, what is faith...

To say you would need object, concrete evidence of faith is counter to the very definition of the word. So, to answer your question, it is ok to take faith on 'faith' because that is what it is! If I take have faith in God and His plan for salvation by grace, then I cannot 'prove' to anyone that I have faith in it, I just do. It is personal.

Works, and specifically 'good' works, are exactly counter to the idea of faith. Works are actual deeds, actions or measurable goals. They, by their very nature, can be monitored and judged by others. In addition, the use of the qualifer 'good' (which is added by quite a few people) is trying to make a measurable deed immeasurable, which leads to a need for a complete definition.

So, my points are still valid.....while yours are not.

Now, if you try to equate faith to belief, you are going to get into some trouble, for even the demons believe, but do not have faith. Faith is not simple belief, it involves trust and humility. Can we measure that? Can we for sure explain that to someone? Can someone else judge us on this? No.

But, if I were to do a deed or work, are others able to judge us based upon that deed or work. Yes they are.

Faith is a nebulus idea while a work is a concrete action that is measurable to everyone around you. They are completely different. Then, to try to make works similiar to faith by using a qualifier of 'good', invalidates the idea of the work in general!

This, in a nutshell, is why the belief in works as being necassary to salvation is wrong.

The topic is much larger than the forum, but in my asking questions I was hoping to get you to break away from your preconcieved notions. It appears I may have failed. Perhaps some of this might make more sense. If not, we can always try again later.

jason

 

Jason, since you say that works are measurable, please give me the objective measure of loving your neighbor as yourself.

 

Living4Him,

No, they do not. Thats our point. We are justified by faith in Christ alone.

God bless,

Mike

 

Wow! You completely proved my point and you didn't even realize it.

How do you know when you have done this? If this work was required for salvation, when would your work be done (for the neighbor to your left, so you can now concentrate on earning salvation by loving the neighbor to your right)? When would you have satisified the requirement?

This is what would be known as a good work (did you even read my thread?), so how do you know when you are good enough (have loved your neighbor enough)? Do you now take your work on faith?

Stop typing, think about it....then get back to me.

jason

PS. we are saved by grace, through faith. I read that somewhere.

 

Jason, you were the one that said that works are objectively measurable. Show me by giving me the measure.

You are the one that says that you are saved by faith alone. You also said that faith can't be measured.

So how do you know that you have enough faith to be saved?

You see, whatever arguement you have against faith & works can be equally applied to faith alone.

Why then does your position then stand and no other?