Greetings All,
Since the first thread on this important issue was hijacked by a Spurgeon debate and then closed, I am beginning a Part 2 in hopes to find what is the "True Calvinism". There appears to be a split in the Calvin camp on a very core issue which was raised by brother Icon...even though claims that the camp is in agreement with him.
Let's refresh our memories on the claims brother Icon made concerning why many do not embrace Calvinism/TULIP.
I will give the exact quotes, so we can be perfectly clear what the subject raised was, and how that subject was answered. Attempts have been made to do rewrites and then give long pointless answers in order to cloud the OP and cause confusion upon the readers. This is not helpful in seeking the truth of this important subject, and I am not sure why some feel a need to distort the issue. If you believe something, don't be afraid to be clear and defend it. No need to attempt to wiggle out of statements made.
Post 2 pending........
A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Dec 26, 2014.
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Brother Icon declares that one cannot become a Calvinist unless God allows them to believe the doctrine.....
My question is, is this what all Calvinist believe? Please answer pertaining directly to the OP, in other words, please do not tweek or rewrite the OP and then answer something different.
Brother Icon says his position is within the camp of Calvinism. -
Now in the original Thread on this subject, we had one Calvinist speak up in agreement with brother Icon, in fact, he declared brother Icon always correct....
Before the thread was digressed into a Spurgeon debate, we had this comment....
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
My intent in saying what I said about Icon's statements was to point out that Icon had missed the point of the passage he was citing. Secondarily, I was saying I didn't agree with his statement. Why? I do not believe one needs to be a Calvinist to be an orthodox or "good" Christian. I know and admire many non-Calvinists who are fantastically committed to Christ.
To be sure, there are some expressions of Calvinism and Arminianism that are far outside orthodoxy. And there is a range of understanding within each system.
The Archangel -
Steaver, Iconoclast and I are taking up waaaaaaay tooooooooo much of your time....
Please go and get yourself a hobby.....
I never said Icon was always right...but he's right a LOT more than you are....:thumbsup: -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
Since I don't think he applies that passage correctly, I don't think the conclusion he comes to is proper.
On the whole (completely divorced from Icon's comments and the--now--two threads about them) I think God does lead us into deeper understanding and I think that's part of the nature of sanctification. Again, as I've said before, I think sanctification is a synergistic thing--God works in us and we work, too.
We do progress in our sanctification at varying rates and arrive (at least in this life) at different points and conclusions. I do think it too far of an over statement to say that only Calvinists are properly sanctified, etc.
The Archangel -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The person that posts such a view - must logically conclude that no Arminian here is exposing the flaws in Calvinism simply because they 'choose to do so' but rather God is causing that born again saved Arminian to expose each flaw in Calvinism as it is exposed in scripture to be flawed.
Certainly I as an Arminian would agree that God is directing the Arminian in that effort - and so to at least some extent - I would agree with such a Calvinist.
What I don't understand - is why such a Calvinist would of their own free will debate such an Arminian when they and I both know that they are debating against the will of God in such a case, since we both agree that God has actually ordained that the Arminian should expose the flaws in Calvinism just as they are doing and the Calvinist goes even farther by insisting that the Arminian has no other choice but to do so.
in Christ,
Bob
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Here are some scripture verses to ponder:
Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
There are several more passages I could cite, but these should suffice.
Anybody want to exegete them? -
Tom Butler said: ↑Here are some scripture verses to ponder:
Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
There are several more passages I could cite, but these should suffice.
Anybody want to exegete them?Click to expand...
...don't bring the scriptures into this thread and derail it...SHEESH!!
:D :) :wavey: :saint: -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Long about the time poor ole Tom B has to intercede in a post.....then I know without reading it that it has gone south......I mean Florida Keys.:laugh:
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The Archangel said: ↑No... I'm not back peddling. I think Icon has misunderstood the hermeneutical limits of the application of that specific text.
Since I don't think he applies that passage correctly, I don't think the conclusion he comes to is proper.
The ArchangelClick to expand...
On the whole (completely divorced from Icon's comments and the--now--two threads about them) I think God does lead us into deeper understanding and I think that's part of the nature of sanctification. Again, as I've said before, I think sanctification is a synergistic thing--God works in us and we work, too.
We do progress in our sanctification at varying rates and arrive (at least in this life) at different points and conclusions. I do think it too far of an over statement to say that only Calvinists are properly sanctified, etc.Click to expand...
Now, what I want to know is why Icon considers you saved when you have not been shown by the Holy Spirit the same interpretations and applications of Matt 13 and John 10 that have been taught to him by the Holy Spirit?? That is, no Calvinism/TULIP means no sheep! -
Iconoclast said: ↑This is the baptist section of the board...you are sda correct?Click to expand...
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Iconoclast said: ↑Good post. :thumbsup:If we are wrong on any passage and push it to far, making the passage go beyond what is intended.....it will be a mistaken conclusion.Click to expand...
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convicted1 said: ↑How dare you!! What nerve! Why of all the things....
...don't bring the scriptures into this thread and derail it...SHEESH!!
:D :) :wavey: :saint:Click to expand...
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