JonShaff,
Jon....this is exactly what people are trying to post to you....you do not understand the verses...this shallow idea misses the passage totally.
Here is what you are missing:
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; { a corpse, a spiritual corpse}
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
[conformed to the world system]
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[under satans dominion]
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Bound by the flesh, carnal lust, by naturebound in sin and under God's wrath
yet you see this as no obstacle for an unregenerate man to be fully able to respond...without the Spirit quickening him as it says here in eph2:1
A simple fact
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by glad4mercy, May 8, 2018.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Biblical love deals with truth,and letting your yes, be yes
I use the word fables with you because you are just making it up as you go...no scripture to support your idea that regeneration is not necessary -
Hebrews 4:12 NASB
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Hebrews 4 is addressed to the Saints and is about the Saints. Why should it be applied to the as yet unsaved?
What scripture says about the unsaved is:
2 Corinthians 4:3-6 NASB
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
v.3 The Gospel is VEILED to those who are perishing (that would be the unsaved and non-elect) ... unless you have a different definition of "perishing". Even so, whoever these 'perishing' are, they cannot receive the Gospel because of the veil that prevents it ... imagery of the curtain that separates men from the Holy of Holies so they cannot approach the Glory of God resting on the Ark of the Covenant.
v.4 Could not be clearer that Satan has blinded the mind of UNBELIEVERS so they cannot see the Gospel.
v.6 Men may have preached the Gospel, but the unsaved were blind to it until Jesus shone in OUR HEARTS (the hearts of the saved, the heart of the elect) ... it does not say Jesus shone in ALL HEARTS; it says Jesus shone in OUR HEARTS. "Our" is Paul and the rest of the Saints to whom he is writing.
You advocate an ability of the word to save without the Light of Jesus (the Word) choosing to act first. Scripture disagrees with you.
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Eph. 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, -
Martin questioned my salvation and the "spirit that was in me." Yes, I was upset with that. But it seems like we squashed it.
I have dealt with Scripture, and I get the same response, "You don't understand what this really means." All because I do not believe your point of view. Your theology is clearly dictating what you think the Scriptures say instead of letting the Scriptures dictate your theology. It's the same old song and dance every time someone engages with y'all. Someone posts confessional statements or copy and pastes out of a systematic theology book. Really, it's quite exhausting and not very helpful. -
6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Paul says we were the children of wrath too ;)
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
You take one verse that can be understood from several positions and then make that your proof text. That is not how we ought to understood God's redeeming work. -
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Here is an entire paragraph, to avoid the accusation of just looking at just one verse:
Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
This is all about salvation. Where in this praise of all God has done to save us, is any choice on our part mentioned?
v.4 But God ...
v.5 when WE were dead ... MADE us alive (by GRACE)
v.6 raised US up ... in Christ Jesus
v.7 [So that God could show] ... His grace and kindness towards us.
v.8 By GRACE [we] have been saved, through FAITH ... "that" (saved, grace and faith) not of [ourselves] ... gift of God
v.9 so that no one may boast.
v.10 We are GOD's workmanship (God did the work)
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2 Corinthians 4:3-4 says "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." so you will need to take your complaints up with the Apostle Paul.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
it says yeah we trust ....so what ...every believer ,believes. What you fail to realize is verse 3 to 14 is one sentence in the original language so if you take it as a whole it doesn't quite give the slant the way you try to portray it.
it actually keeps it in context and tells us exactly the cause of our Salvation is God alone. That we get that from scripture we we didn't put that in there we didn't make it up this long verse is in scripture and we understand it the way it's meant to be understood and the way God has given it to us. Going into Ephesians 2 you have the depraved condition of man until verse four that says but God who is rich in Mercy so it's again all it's not man it's not man's free will, or man's wisdom, or man's anything.
Another thing, everyone tells you yeah you don't understand this or understand that and get cut and paste a confessional statement because they're trying to show you that these statements are well thought out and have been around for hundreds of years and they actually summarize the scripture very well. And what they offer you that statement you at no time take apart any one of those confessional or catechism statements and show why it's wrong you you and everyone else on here is but unable to do that so until you do they'll still be posted -
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord...
The point of Paul's statement is not to bring about calvinistic theology, but to say the Message he preaches is that of Christ--and if people choose not to believe, it's not the Message's Fault. -
It is part of the "gotcha" game some of these brainwashed amateur theologians play. Instead of taking the time to study and learn they let their fingers do the talking. Instead of the filter of common sense they just spew out their nonsense. And I used the word "some" for a reason, because not every Synergist is so blatant about it.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk -
as for the rest of your statements...I really don't even know what to say. -
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There is a deep, fundamental difference between someone simply "choosing not to believe" and "the god of this world [blinding] the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel" or "the devil [taking] away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved".
The whole flow of Paul in 2 Corinthians 4 is that WE (the saved) preach Jesus so people can hear and SOME will be veiled from the Gospel and Jesus will shine His light in the heart of SOME. Just like the one seed, but different soils yielding different results (some had no chance for the seed to grow) ... here we have the same story. I am not reading Calvinism into these verses ... reading these verses, I was unable to reconcile scripture to what I wanted salvation to be like (A God who tries to save all and people who refuse to be saved). I had to reject either Scripture or Synergism. I chose to accept what the scripture actually says.
Did Jesus say that the Devil would snatch the word away from some so they could not be saved?
Did Paul say that those perishing were blinded to the Gospel?
Do we believe what scripture says? -
Except you fail to bring in 2 Corinthians 3
12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
Paul may be using this idea of unbelief in Chapter 4 as a way to say they (possibly unbelieving Jews--since Paul may be defending his ministry against them) are in unbelief because they want the law of Moses to save them--therefore they are in unbelief, So Satan continues to blind them, which causes them to stay in unbelief.
Once again--if we do not keep the book context in mind, we will make up doctrines that are not intended from the author. -
2 Corinthians 3
16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
Notice the veil isn't removed first, but faith and repentance happens first.
So it would be my conclusion that Paul is saying that Satan only aids in unbelief BECAUSE an unbelieving Jew desires to be saved by the Works of the Law--a willful rejection of the Gospel of Christ.
Guys, that is why it is so important to keep these passages in their proper Context! 2 Corinthians 3 is dealing with the Law and the Old Covenant. This "Veil" is a play on words by Paul to say, "If a Jew wants to believe the Law will save them then Satan will continue to keep them in unbelief. If they turn towards Christ, the veil will be removed and they will see the Glory Of God in the Face of Jesus Christ, Just like we do."
This isn't a passage that declares some sort of calvinist teaching...it's a rebuke to the unbelieving Jews that want to be saved by the law of Moses. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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@SovereignGrace
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