You've discovered how the Calvinist debates. They will say, "You don't understand what it really means" or "That scripture isn't saying what you think it says" or "the underlying Greek means something different than the English translation" or "you're taking that scripture out of context" or "that scripture is addressed to believers not unbelievers" (or unbelievers, not believers), etc. etc.
Then comes the Baptist Confession of 1689, or the 1644 Baptist Confession, or the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Which is why I don't participate much in these discussions anymore.
A simple fact
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by glad4mercy, May 8, 2018.
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Saying that man has a responsibility to Trust in Christ's atoning work after they hear the Gospel of Christ is Biblical Truth. -
Sometimes people hear the gospel and years later they experience Christ. In my case, I heard about Christ in Sunday School as a kid. Years later from out of the blue I began experiencing the fruit of the Holy Spirit in my heart. I was not a believer nor was I seeking Christ at the time. I told a friend that I didn't know what was happening to me, but I think Christ is real. On the evening of the third joyous day I began remorsing over my sins and more sins I didn't know existed. And weeping, I asked Jesus to forgive me and come into my heart, (I remembered this from way back when). Falling asleep exhausted in tears, I woke the next morning with Joy I could not contain.
I began studying the bible and witnessing about how real Christ is. And about the obvious change he made in me. A string of conversions followed in those I knew, wanting what I had. I eventually found a Church to baptize me and the rest is history.
I don't know how this fits anyone's theory, but it's how I entered the kingdom. -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I am not saying babies that die go to hell, but I am not automatically ushering them into heaven, either. -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The word of God is either sufficient or it’s not to save ppl. I say it is the sole source of our faith. -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
infants aren't sinners.
I John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Note: it isn't a disease as all gnostics preach. It isn't some transferred guilt which is contained in male spermatozoa....it's the transgression of the LAW.
Sin is a legal judgement of guilt upon one who knows right from wrong and subsequently disobeys it.
Sin is disobedience to revealed Law...commandment understood, known and broken.
But sin is not imputed where there is no law:
Rom 5:12-14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Without knowledge of the law, there is no sin:
Rom 7:7-12
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
To hear Apostle number three agree let's hear from not John, nor Paul but James, who agrees completely:
Jas. 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
The Scriptures could not be more clear....the Old Testament affirms the patently obvious:
Deut. 1: 39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
THE QUESTION OF THE FATE OF INFANTS IS NOT SOMETHING GOD LEFT TO MYSTERY
It is only mystery if one (as all gnostics do) believes that sin is a communicable disease (in complete defiance of Scriptural revelation) which poisons the essence of a creature which cannot speak, cannot reason, does not either obey nor disobey, has no concept of right and wrong and has no more sense than to cry for milk and helplessly lay in it's own urine and feces........
This is the helpless creature which the Calvinist dogma teaches that God has nothing but hatred and loathing for....
The very aborted children in the womb that God supposedly wants to protect, he simultaneously considers infinitely odious and hateful to him. and nothing would please him more than to torture them for eternity because of the communicable disease (apparently) of sin they inherited.
Sorry Calvinists but the following well-phrased dogma:
while logically consistent, is beyond the pale, and reflects a God I not only don't know but won't and would not under any free circumstances worship.
Thus,
Sovereign's conclusion, rightly derived and inescapable from that dogma:
Is not MERELY mistaken or wrong.
It is against all revealed Scripture.
It is gnostic
It is heresy
It is Evil
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
InTheLight,
Yes....they read posts containing error and the offer correction:Sick
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John 3:16
(KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(ASV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(BBE) For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.
(Darby) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
(ERV) Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life.
(ESV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(Geneva) For God so loued the worlde, that hee hath giuen his onely begotten Sonne, that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
(ISV) "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.
(KJV+) ForG1063 GodG2316 soG3779 lovedG25 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG5620 he gaveG1325 hisG848 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 inG1519 himG846 should notG3361 perish,G622 butG235 haveG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222
(KJV-1611) For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
(MKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(NIV) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(RSV) For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(NASB) For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
(NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Just tryin to help you brotha, don't hate! :) -
My Logos Bible program says 'whoever' is in the text :)
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InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Oh, and as to the charge I don't use scripture:
Does God allow Divorce Today? -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
All: The Elect
Everyone: The Elect
The World: The Elect
Whosoever: The Elect -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"Benjamin,
Hello Benjamin....hope you and family are doing well...thanks for the attempted help...I will shorten your list for you
John 3:16
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
3439 [e] monogenē μονογενῆ only begotten, Adj-AMS
1325 [e] edōken ἔδωκεν, he gave, V-AIA-3S
2443 [e] hina ἵνα that Conj
3956 [e] pas πᾶς everyone Adj-NMS
3588 [e] ho ὁ - Art-NMS
4100 [e] pisteuōn πιστεύων believing V-PPA-NMS
1519 [e] eis εἰς in Prep
846 [e] auton αὐτὸν him, PPro-AM3S
3361 [e] mē μὴ not Adv
622 [e] apolētai ἀπόληται should perish, V-ASM-3S
Nestle GNT 1904
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν Υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Westcott and Hort 1881
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ / ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Greek Orthodox Church 1904
Οὕτω γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Tischendorf 8th Edition
οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
Οὕτω γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ' ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον
you can sort these out ben...from bible hub
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