About Modern Versions compared to the KJV

[TCassidy]

Another reason to use the KJV is that it is sometimes the only translation accepted by the cults.

The fact that they use the KJV to teach their damnable heresy should tell you something.

 

[HankD]

Modern English but stuck somewhere between the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods coincidental with the writings of Shakespeare some folks even saying that he had a hand in the final construction of the vocabulary, grammar and syntax.

Eh?

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Modern English but stuck somewhere between the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods coincidental with the writings of Shakespeare some folks even saying that he had a hand in the final construction of the vocabulary, grammar and syntax.

Eh?

HankD

It has been suggested (and may be a myth) that William Shakespeare was a style consultant on the poetry of the book of Psalms.

It is said that on the occasion of his 46th birthday, in 1610, the translation committee surprised him with a little gift. They gave him a copy of Psalm 46 (his age at the time) and told him to count down 46 words. He did and came to the word "shake." He was then instructed to go to the end and count back 46 words. He did and came to the word "spear."

Psalm 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.
4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge.
8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge.

Whether a myth or not, it fits.

 

[HankD]

It has been suggested (and may be a myth) that William Shakespeare was a style consultant on the poetry of the book of Psalms.

It is said that on the occasion of his 46th birthday, in 1610, the translation committee surprised him with a little gift. They gave him a copy of Psalm 46 (his age at the time) and told him to count down 46 words. He did and came to the word "shake." He was then instructed to go to the end and count back 46 words. He did and came to the word "spear."

Psalm 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.
4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge.
8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge.

Whether a myth or not, it fits.

COOL!

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Oddly because the Byzantine Majority revisers used a Critical Text document as their starting point. No denigration of the ASV (I've had a copy for decades), but I don't think you can find another version that took that route.

The HCSB went other way, was to be majority, ended up based upon the CT!

 

[Yeshua1]

Why "oddly?" The ASV earned the sobriquet "The Rock of Biblical Honesty."

And editing/updating it using the Byzantine textform made an excellent translation even better. The WEB is now my electronic bible of choice.

The Nasb used the critical text to update the Asv, so curious as to if there is really THAT much of a difference between the Web and the Nasv?

 

[church mouse guy]

The fact that they use the KJV to teach their damnable heresy should tell you something.

I don't quite follow you on that point. Specifically, I don't know what it tells me that cults accept the KJV. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are 19th century in origin so I attribute their insistence on the KJV to their founders. Do you care to elaborate on your point?

I always heard that the KJV was mostly Tyndale, which amazes me that one man could have been so brilliant.

I still think that Elizabethan English is the most beautiful flower in spoken and written English and that is part of what makes the KJV so beautiful.

 

[Rob_BW]

I still think that Elizabethan English is the most beautiful flower in spoken and written English and that is part of what makes the KJV so beautiful.

While I don't necessarily see Elizabethan/Jacoban English as more beautiful than other varieties, I will say that (in my opinion) a majority of the most beautiful poetry written in English was written in those strains.

 

[rlvaughn]

Another reason to use the KJV is that it is sometimes the only translation accepted by the cults.

The fact that they use the KJV to teach their damnable heresy should tell you something.

Not sure this tells us much of anything. Some good Bible-believing Christians use the KJV, some cults use the KJV (Mormons, perhaps?) and some cults do not use the KJV (Jehovah's Witnesses, e.g.). Seems to me all it tells us is that some people use the KJV and that some people do not.

 

[Logos1560]

some cults do not use the KJV (Jehovah's Witnesses, e.g.).

I do not know if Jehovah's Witnesses use the KJV now, but they did use it in the past even as late as 1992.

For a period of time, Jehovah's Witnesses published their own editions of the KJV. In 1907, they published the Bible Students Edition of the KJV (Jehovah Witnesses, p. 606). In 1942, they purchased plates for an edition of the KJV with marginal references from the A. J. Holman Company, and printed over 1,858,000 of these KJV's by 1992 (Ibid., p. 607). They produced an edition of the KJV (perhaps the one just mentioned), which is "complete with a concordance especially designed for use by Jehovah's Witnesses in their field ministry" (Ibid., p. 93).

 

[church mouse guy]

Not sure this tells us much of anything. Some good Bible-believing Christians use the KJV, some cults use the KJV (Mormons, perhaps?) and some cults do not use the KJV (Jehovah's Witnesses, e.g.). Seems to me all it tells us is that some people use the KJV and that some people do not.

I think that Mormons say that the KJV is good insofar as it is translated properly. Of course, they cannot win any debate on the accuracy of the Tyndale/KJV.

In the case of the Jehovah Witnesses, they publish or used to publish the KJV (as Logos 1560 states above) so that one could say that the Watchtower publishes the KJV so let's use it instead of the Watchtower translation.

The trouble with abandoning the KJV is that one is not prepared to evangelize the cults, who probably are going to consider that one's today's translation is incorrect automatically.

 

[rlvaughn]

I do not know if Jehovah's Witnesses use the KJV now, but they did use it in the past even as late as 1992.

For a period of time, Jehovah's Witnesses published their own editions of the KJV. In 1907, they published the Bible Students Edition of the KJV (Jehovah Witnesses, p. 606). In 1942, they purchased plates for an edition of the KJV with marginal references from the A. J. Holman Company, and printed over 1,858,000 of these KJV's by 1992 (Ibid., p. 607). They produced an edition of the KJV (perhaps the one just mentioned), which is "complete with a concordance especially designed for use by Jehovah's Witnesses in their field ministry" (Ibid., p. 93).

That's pretty surprising -- that some JWs were using the KJV as late as 1992 -- considering they produced their own New Testament in 1950 and the whole Bible in 1961. This is the New World Translation. I have a 1970 revision that a friend gave me in Junior High about that time, so they were using it then. This version has been updated again in 2013. On their own web site, they seem to take about the same view of the KJV as most supporters of the critical text.

The New World Translation is based on up-to-date scholarly research and the most reliable ancient manuscripts. In contrast, the King James Version of 1611 was based on manuscripts that were often less accurate and not as old as those used in producing the New World Translation.

All that said, my point wasn't really about the Jehovah's Witnesses, but that cults use all sorts of Bibles, which to me doesn't prove much of anything about Bible versions.

[Note: I'm not saying you're wrong about some JW's using the KJV, just that such a practice is very odd in light of the fact that they have their own Bible that is much more supportive of their unique doctrines.]

 

[rlvaughn]

I think that Mormons say that the KJV is good insofar as it is translated properly. Of course, they cannot win any debate on the accuracy of the Tyndale/KJV.

I'm not too familiar with the Mormon view on the KJV (though I know someone I can ask), but I wonder if they're kind of "stuck" with it, seeing Joseph Smith "translated"/wrote the Book of Mormon sort of in that style of English. For example:

1 Nephi 3:2 And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream, in the which the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem.

Seeing they have the KJV on their web site seems to indicate their support of it.

In the case of the Jehovah Witnesses, they publish or used to publish the KJV (as Logos 1560 states above) so that one could say that the Watchtower publishes the KJV so let's use it instead of the Watchtower translation.

I am confused both by the fact they would publish the KJV (see above for a quote of what they say about it) and I don't understand what you mean by "so that one could say that the Watchtower publishes the KJV so let's use it instead of the Watchtower translation."

The trouble with abandoning the KJV is that one is not prepared to evangelize the cults, who probably are going to consider that one's today's translation is incorrect automatically.

I have not abandoned the KJV -- still use it in study and preaching -- and am not advocating that anyone do so. But I don't really see that it is the "standard" to use against cults because that is what they use. In other words, I don't think it is a given that most cults use the KJV.

 

[rlvaughn]

Here are some quotes on the KJV from the COJCofLDS web site, which shows their support of it, from a letter released by the First Presidency:

The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suffered the loss of many plain and precious parts. ‘We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.’ (A of F 1:8.)

The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations.

While other Bible versions may be easier to read than the King James Version, in doctrinal matters latter-day revelation supports the King James Version in preference to other English translations. All of the Presidents of the Church, beginning with the Prophet Joseph Smith, have supported the King James Version by encouraging its continued use in the Church.

The LDS edition of the Bible (1979) contains the King James Version supplemented and clarified by footnotes, study aids, and cross-references to the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

 

[rsr]

Jehovah's Witnesses also use the ASV and The Bible in Living English, both because of their more extensive use of Jehovah.

 

[rlvaughn]

Maybe the JWs use different versions in proselytizing folks who won't accept their version??

 

[rlvaughn]

That seems to be what is described HERE.

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses depend on the New World Translation to support their beliefs?

No, for we continue to use many translations of the Bible in our witnessing work. In fact, while we provide a copy of the New World Translation at no charge as part of our free Bible study program, we are also happy to study with those who prefer to use other translations.

 

[rsr]

They'll use any version that the prospect is using. I doubt many prospects are using the ASV or The Bible in Living English (that's especially true for the latter because the Watchtower Society obtained the rights to it and, to my knowledge, only published a small number of copies.)

 

[church mouse guy]

I'm not too familiar with the Mormon view on the KJV (though I know someone I can ask), but I wonder if they're kind of "stuck" with it, seeing Joseph Smith "translated"/wrote the Book of Mormon sort of in that style of English. For example:
Seeing they have the KJV on their web site seems to indicate their support of it.

I am confused both by the fact they would publish the KJV (see above for a quote of what they say about it) and I don't understand what you mean by "so that one could say that the Watchtower publishes the KJV so let's use it instead of the Watchtower translation."

I have not abandoned the KJV -- still use it in study and preaching -- and am not advocating that anyone do so. But I don't really see that it is the "standard" to use against cults because that is what they use. In other words, I don't think it is a given that most cults use the KJV.

I am merely saying that the Watchtower translation is not recognized by anyone other than the Watchtower and that you can say to a Watchtower missionary that the KJV is acceptable to the Watchtower based upon their past publication of it and therefore the KJV is a translation accepted by both sides, although to the detriment of the Watchtower Society, as you know.

 

[AV]

Obviously cults use the KJV to give themselves credibility. But what is an interesting comparison between the KJV and newer bibles is the presuppositional nature of the underlying texts. The new bibles exalt science over the bible subjecting scripture to 'science falsely so called'.

Consider this- conceal a thing