The Scriptures teach that we must endure to the end in order to be saved.
So then a person who has endured for 30 years and then goes goofy because of a mini stroke or whatever goes to Hell?
Abraham and "the deeds of the law"
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 4, 2012.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Greetings again The Biblicist and billwald,
I appreciate your replies, but as usual I am a little confused at some aspects of your answer.
Genesis 15:5-6 (KJV): 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
This is outside of the works of the law or good works, or as you put it "the works of the law" or "good works", which from what you have written is defined in a different sense which is difficult to follow.
Kind regards
Trevor -
trevor
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Heb. 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Jn. 2:19: "They went out FROM US because THEY WERE NOT OF US; for if they had been OF US, they would NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US; but they went out that it MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST they they were not all OF US."
The context is those who turn against Christ - antichrists! -
Greetings savedbymercy,
Romans 4:3-5 (KJV): 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Perhaps the following will satisfy you, showing that God’s righteousness is centred in the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is given by God’s grace to the believer of the gospel:
Romans 1:16-17 (KJV): 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 3:25-26 (KJV): 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor -
Greetings again The Biblicist,
Hebrews 13:13-14 (KJV): 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
I read the above as conditional. Notice also Habakkuk 2:4 is quoted in v38 above and this speaks of justification by faith, and also that this faith and justification will result in eternal life. This statement concerning justification is an introduction to Hebrews 11 which speaks of what the faithful did and is teaching that the Hebrews must follow the examples of the faithful, that is those that acted in accordance with their faith. Faith and correct action, a faith that works by love, comes by hearing the word of God Romans 10:17, Galatians 5:6. I do not accept OSAS.
Kind regards
Trevor -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
James is looking at justification from a POST CONVERSIONAL PROFESSION point of view ("if a man say") and an observational point of view ("Shew me.....I will shew you") with a context of drastic contrast ("faith without works") not merely few works but NO WORKS observed and thus from a very PRAGMATIC and a HORIZONTAL DEMONTRATIONAL approach.
In contrast, Paul is dealing with justification "before God" not man, not from a profession or demonstratable point of view but strictly from the systematic theological point of view. Neither is he looking at justification from a post-conversional point of view but distinct and separate from regeneration in Romans 3:24-5:21. It is in Romans 6-8 that he considers the Post-conversional view point and justification with regenerative life where works are included.
These are easy and simple differences that stand out in stark contrast to each other. However, you have an axe to grind and position to defend and so they will be not only ignored but rejected by you. Good works in the life of the believer do not originate from justification by faith but from regeneration wherein a person is "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" - Eph. 2:10. That is the post-coversional observational point of view that Paul shares with James. In pragmatic terms justification and regeneration are inseparable but yet distinct but your type of theology is incapable of making that distinction.
Your loss. The phrase "the just shall live by faith" is greatly distorted by your side of the aisle. "The Just" should be read and understood to mean "the Justified ones." The words "shall live" do not refer to the daily life but to the life obtained by justification or positional/legal eternal life - and that life is obtained "by faith" alone without works.
This interpretation can easily be seen as true when you look at the other contexts Paul uses it (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11).
The same is true of John 10:28-30 - These are matter of fact ASSERTIONS without one conditinal clause. He is not telling how one becomes and stays a sheep but he is declaring what IS a sheep. John 10:26 declares that those he is addressing could not believe in him BECAUSE they are not his sheep but you surely do not believe that do you?
You do not understand or believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You teach another god
You are being led by another spirit
And until the Lord reveals Himself to you, you will go on in your false religion. -
what is the basis of God justification of yourself?
How does God save any one?
By works of rightousness that we have done, or by the Cross of Christ, accessed thru by faith ALONE? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,
I believe in justification by faith in the gospel of the things of the kingdom and the name of Jesus Christ. This faith leads to baptism and a life of sanctification by means of the Word of God affectionately believed and espoused, and a patient and earnest waiting for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth for the 1000 years.
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
I remind you also of what James says concerning Abraham, and note he is quoting the important passage in Genesis 15:6. Note also James rejects the expression “faith ALONE” by saying “not by faith only”:
James 2:21-24 (KJV): 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Kind regards
Trevor -
NONE are, or even can be saved by doing ANY works of the Law, as NONE of that will remove our original sin debt owed to God!
As the BASIS of any getting justified is by death of Chreist, and faith placed in him will have God fully and completely justify/save the sinner, immediatly giving him new nature AND the presense of the Holy Spirit!
Good works follow all of that, as we in christ shall seek to do them in order to please the Lord! -
Greetings again Yeshua1,
I do not agree that a believer receives a new nature. I also believe that today we only receive the Holy Spirit in the sense that we absorb the product of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God 2 Timothy 3:15-17. The expression “good works” could be misunderstood. What is required is works of faith. Hebrews and James give the example of Abraham offering up Isaac. This was a work of faith. Abraham believed in the promises concerning the seed, and he believed in the resurrection. He trusted that what God had promised He would be able and willing to perform. This motivated Abraham, and the Scriptures record that Abraham was justified by this faith, that is this work of faith.
Sanctification comes through faith, an affectionate belief of the gospel of the kingdom and the name Acts 8:5,12, Acts 3.
Kind regards
Trevor -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Second, we define “orthodoxy” to include what is essential to salvation and service and may be summarized in principle as follows:
1. Every teaching and practice the Scriptures demand to be non-negotiable.
2. Every teaching and practice essential to distinguish Christianity as found in the New Testament from other world religions and predicted apostate Christianity.
3. Every teaching and practice essential to preserve the above two principles.
The “gospel of the Kingdom” refers to the kingdom first in the Person of the King requires submission repentance and faith in his redemptive work. This is what John the Baptist defined the “gospel of the kingdom” in Mark 1:2-4:
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Baptism was for those who received his message of submission to the coming kingdom by repentance and faith.
This entailed gospel conversion/new birth apart from which it is impossible to “see” or “to enter” the kingdom of God as a spiritual sphere here and now or as the coming physical sphere at His coming as the King of kings and Lord of lord’s at the end of this age to set up his kingdom on earth.
What you also fail to see is that James goes beyond the initial point when Abraham was said to have been imputed righteousness by faith unto Genesis 22 in order to demonstrate his point that Abraham was not justified "by faith only."
Both in Genesis 15:5-6 and Genesis 12:1-3 Moses uses the perfect tense to demonstrate that Abraham was initially justified in Genesis 11 while still in Ur of the Chaldees. For example Geneis 12:1-3 "had said" refers to Genesis 11 according to Galatians 3:8 while still in Ur before he departed to Haran with his father. Genesis 15:6 also points back to that initial time as the point of justification by faith in the gospel. The additional promises were but expansive of the same initial promise just as his faith in those expanded promises was evident of his initial faith in the same initial promise. In other words he kept on believing what God initial promised as God provided more expansive details of the very same promise. This is like 1 John 5:13. Initial faith in the gospel obtains eternal life however what John additionally furnished his readers strengthened that initial faith.
James point is that initial justification by faith in Ur of the Chaldees was a continuing faith in the initial gospel promise and as it continued it was made evidential not merely by profession but by the attendance of "good works" because there can be no justification where there is not regeneration manfiested by "good works."
James is speaking of OBSERVATIONAL justification by works! He makes this clear when he says "a man may say.....SHEW ME.......SHEW you.......Do you SEE HOW..."
However, it is one thing to be justified by works OBSERVATIONALLY and PRAGMATICALLY but that does not mean that "good works" originate with justification or that justification is by works "before God."
Paul is not dealing with justification on a horizontal level of observation but on a vertical level before God.
Paul is not dealing with justification from a pragmatic perpsective where justification is inseparable from regeneation/sanctification (as James is) but from a THEOLOGICAL perspective where justification is DISTINCT and SEPARATE from regeneration/sanctification.
In contrast YOU are dealing with both James and Paul from the Roman Catholic perspective that makes no theological distinction between justification/regeneration/sanctification. -
Greetings again The Biblicist,
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
In my opinion most Protestants ignore teaching the things of the kingdom, and even if an attempt is made there are many wrong ideas which do not agree with the Scriptures. Similarly in my opinion Protestants teach many wrong aspects concerning the things of the name.
Kind regards
Trevor -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Believing in "his name" is parallel to what Peter said in Acts 10:43 "whosoever believeth upon his name" which refers to ENTRANCE into the kingdom but the "things of the kingdom" are for those only who have already ENTERED into the kingdom.
Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born again in order to ENTER and SEE the kingdom but after entrance into the kingdom they SERVE God in regard to the "things" of the Kingdom.
1. Galatians 3:8 defines the initial promise given Abrahm identified as the gospel he first believed and this is repeated in Genesis 12:1-3.
Gal. 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gen. 12:1 ¶ Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
NOTE: "had said" means he was in Ur of the Chaldees when this was said to him because if not then he could not have been told to "get thee out of THY COUNTRY" - His birth country was Ur of the Chaldees.
2. Genesis 12:1-3 uses the Perfect tense "had said" referring to the precise point when this gospel was preached to Abraham and where Abraham received it in Genesis 11 while still in Ur of the Chaldees.
Gen. 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son’s son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram’s wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
3. Genesis 15:7 proves that Geneisis 15:4-5 was merely a further development of the same promise first embraced by faith in Genesus 11 and further development of the same previous faith first expressed in Genesis 11 while in the Ur of the Chaldees while in his father's house before he went to Haran.
Gen. 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. [same promise as preached by God in the gospel - Gal. 3:8 in Ur]
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. [same faith further embracing the same promise as preached in the gospel in Ur - Gal. 3:8]
7 ¶ And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Abraham was first justified by faith when He believed in the initial gospel promise first preahed to Him by God before he left Ur of the chaldees. It was this initial promise and instruction to leave Ur of the Chaldees that I believe prompted his Father to leave also. The same promise was again presented to him in Genesis 12:1-3 after his father died in Haran which prompted him to further obey and leave Haran to go to Palestine. After entering Palestine this same promise was again given to him in Genesis 15:1-5 and further expanded and Abraham continued to beleive it (Gen. 15:6) as he first did in Ur as Genesis 15:7 clearly infers. -
When do they happen, and how? -
Greetings again The Biblicist and Yeshua1,
Kind regards
Trevor -
Justification, regeneration and sanctification come from faith. -
Greetings again Yeshua1,
Perhaps a few quotations, but there are many others that need to be considered to fill in the full picture:
The following is a simple summary of the initial preaching of the gospel and the response of the believers:
Acts 8:5,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Notice that it was simply the word of the gospel that was preached. To preach Christ is defined as things of the kingdom and the name, and they believed these things and were baptised. This is justification by faith and regeneration. They did not at this stage receive the Holy Spirit until some days later, when the Apostles came. Philip did not impart the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit received was the gifts of the Holy Spirit, given in different parts to different members of the believers at Samaria, not for the individual’s regeneration or sanctification, but for the benefit or edification of the assembly (Gk: ecclesia – not church in the sense of a building) at Samaria as a whole.
A good example of sanctification, a response of faith, is the way of life revealed in the Apostle Paul:
Galatians 1:15-16 (KJV): 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The above quotation is a good example of the teaching that Christ’s sacrifice is representative, not substitutionary. We need to be identified with Christ in his way of life, putting to death the flesh, and living by the power of faith in his resurrected life.
Paul in his example and his preaching revealed this crucified life in their midst.
Galatians 3:1 (KJV): O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
It is significant that the quotations above are taken from the Book of Galatians, and this book was written to counteract the Judaiser’s claim that it was necessary to not only believe but also keep the Law of Moses. Paul answer is that the life of faith is what is required. This life starts with faith, and justification, regeneration and sanctification flow from this. The end product is a character well-pleasing to God, resulting in humility, service and praise to God, the Creator. Law-keeping and seeking to do “good works” can generate pride and self-worship.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the great exemplar, and the way of life we are called upon to follow is also revealed in Paul and the other Apostles and disciples, and faithful of old:
1 Corinthians 11:1 (KJV): Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
The above are a few aspects of the things concerning the name of Jesus Christ. A correct view of the things of the kingdom are also necessary for faith in the true gospel. The various promise to Eve, Abraham and David are a good starting point, and perhaps a list of a few aspects of the kingdom:
Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:44, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Matthew 19:28, Acts 1:11, Acts 3:19-21.
Kind regards
Trevor
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