Winman, thanks for your testimony. I was also 11 when I first responded to the Gospel in an identical way as you described. I personally dont think that I was saved then though although it is possible. I was 22 (2 years ago as I am now 24) when I really believed that I met Jesus of the Scripture. I was not a so called Calvinist then :), in fact I probably had kindergarden knowledge of the bible at best as I never read it until that point.
You said "That's not true at all. We hear with our ears, but we believe with our heart."
I dont doubt this, but my point was that you dont think the Holy Spirit had anything to do with your internal change at conversion (Im talking about before). Just because He did indwell in you at the time before you believed doesnt mean He didnt effectually call you in your soul to an irresistable desire to come to Christ. Im just saying; I didnt even use the word regeneration for you :). Im not talking about the things God did such as give us the Scriptures I am talking about true conviction of the heart and understanding of your sin and God's righteousness deep within. In order to believe with the heart we must see these things in our inner man and not merely just knowledge, in my opinion.
Im not going to comment on any more of your scriptures, I think we can agree to disagree at this point.
Adam represented all men and Christ represented...who exactly?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 29, 2009.
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Well, thanks for your testimony as well. You know, you don't have to know much scripture to be saved, it is a fact that the vast majority of Christians accept Christ as a young child or teen. The gospel is simple, the rest of the Bible is not so simple.
But the scriptures clearly show that unregenerate man can hear the gospel, be convicted, repent, and then afterward receives the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now, look at this carefully and see the order of events.
#1- Now when they heard this- This is when they heard the word of God
#2- they were pricked in their heart... What shall we do? - They were deeply reproved or convicted, exactly what Jesus said the Holy Spirit would do
#3- Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus- This is repentance, turning from unbelief to trust in Christ.
#4- And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - notice it is still called a gift even though they have repented and believed.
This is exactly what Eph 1:13 teaches.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
This shows #1 hearing the gospel, #2 believing the gospel, #3 receiving the Holy Spirit.
If what you believe is true, then you have a man receiving the Holy Spirit twice, something that is absolutely not shown in scripture anywhere.
Look what Paul said:
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
This verse makes no sense at all if Calvinism is true. It would be ludicrous for Paul to ask these disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost since (which means after) they believed if a man can only believe after receiving the Spirit.
And I promise you, Paul knew the doctrines of salvation better than John Calvin or any other person except Jesus Christ. Paul was not just a theologian, the man was a genius. All scripture is written from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, this is God's word.
The scriptures simply do not show what Calvinism teaches. In 400 years no Calvinist has ever been able to show scripture that shows the Holy Spirit regenerates a man first, and then afterward the person is enabled to desire, hear with understanding and believe. It is not shown.
But on the contrary, there are many scriptures that show the unsaved man can hear and believe the gospel, and after doing so receive the Holy Spirit.
That's all I can tell you, just read the scriptures for yourself and see what they say. Don't listen to anybody, including me. Ask God to show you the truth and he will. -
When Jesus healed people it was a picture of salvation. Look at these examples.
Matt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
What do you see here first, the centurion's faith, or his servant being healed? You see faith first. Only after believing did Jesus heal his servant with supernatural power.
And if it were the opposite order, then why would faith be necessary? If the servant was already healed, there could be no faith.
A similar example.
Matt 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Again, what do you see first here, the woman's faith, or her daughter being healed? So, the supernatural work that healed the girl followed her mother's faith.
There are many, many examples like this, and they always show this order. -
Words have an affect on a man. Suppose I ran in your door and said all your family had just been killed in a serious automobile accident. Do you think my words would have an affect on you?
Picture yourself in a theater. Someone jumps up and screams, "Fire, fire!". Do you think that would affect you? I would be heading for the nearest exit.
So, words absolutely have an effect on a man. There is no supernatural work going on when someone shouts "fire!" in the theater.
But I tell you this, you would immediately see who believed. Those who remain in their seats did not believe, those who jump up and head for the exits did.
This is the problem with making faith into some mystical, magical power. It is not. We all have the ability to believe or disbelieve the words we hear. -
Another thought is that God used my pastor to introduce me to the doctrine of the trinity as one of the first doctrines I studied. I was very engaged in preaching to my family because they are Jehovah's witnesses and I didnt understand what they believed but heard bad things. I went to my pastor to tell him of my burden to help them and he told me he was a Jehovah's Witness before he was converted and as his doctorate work he wrote "how to witness to a Jehovah's Witness." Instead of learning how to help my family God directed me through my pastor to know about Him, just as I wanted to already.
I have already told you that you do not have to place regeneration before faith and yet you can still have the sovereign work of the Spirit in salvation.
RC Sproul did Romans today and talked a lot about this.
Ill warn you that you are listening to a Calvinist if you choose to watch it.
http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/video/romans/ -
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Did you believe these words meant all mankind? Or did your teachers correct you as you said?
The truth is, they should come up with that answer, because that is exactly what those words truly mean.
You must know if your parents are Jehovah's Witnesses that they do not believe the word "hell" in the Bible. They do not believe it is where the unsaved go to wait in torment until they are thrown in the lake of fire. They don't believe this even though Jesus told of the rich man who died and went to hell. The saddest part is, that is not a parable but a true story.
You must know they change the meaning and definition of the word hell to make it say something other than it is easily understood to say.
So tell me truthfully, did you think the words world and whosoever in John 3:16 meant all men, or just the elect? -
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Look up that word reprove in a good concordance. The Holy Spirit through the word of God also gives a man understanding.
Psa 119: 130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
You know, the day I went to church when I was a boy, I wasn't worried about my soul. I had been taught that the good go to heaven and the evil go to hell. And I was a pretty good boy. Even when I grew up my parents said I was a very good and obedient boy when I was little. Oh, trust me, I did wrong, but for the most part I really did try to do right.
But when I heard the preaching of God's word I was told that even one little sin makes a person unworthy of earning heaven. And I knew I had done some wrong things like lying. And when I heard that the wages of sin is death, which means to be separated from God in hell forever, well, I tell you, that absolutely got my attention.
So, by God's word which is spirit and life I was convicted of my sins, and also made to know the penalty due for my sins. I also learned that Jesus paid my penalty for me, and Jesus would save me if I came to him. That was enough for me, I came to Jesus right then and there.
But the Holy Spirit works from the exterior, not interior. We have had several Calvinists quote John 3 as proof of their doctrine.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to the wind. We can't see it with our eyes. But Jesus said "thou hearest the sound thereof". This is the word of God. We can hear the word of God with our ears. This is the only effect Jesus showed here on a man.
And let me ask you this, does the wind blow on the inside of your body, or on the outside?
So, you see, the Holy Spirit works from the exterior. You can hear the word of God. He does not penetrate you yet.
And again, this is what Revelations 3:20 shows.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Again, we see Jesus on the outside, knocking on your door. Now, how do you know when someone knocks on your door? You hear it of course. So Jesus is on the outside knocking and calling.
When someone knocks on the door you have a choice. You can go open the door, or you can refuse. You can pretend you do not hear it and ignore it, or you can shout for the person to go away.
But opening the door is a choice. And faith is a choice. When you hear God's word you can choose to believe it as truth, or you can reject it as falsehood.
But if you believe the word of God, you are going to open the door to Jesus. You know you are in trouble, but you also know Jesus loves you and can save you. So you open the door which is your will. Jesus has promised he will come in. Now, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are no longer on the outside, but inside of you. Now you are born again, regenerated and have life. -
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And if Calvinism is true, in my opinion you didn't do anything, in fact Calvinists say they didn't have any part in salvation. You didn't repent or believe, God did it for you. You responded just like this computer I am typing with at this moment. My computer isn't writing these words, I am. And if Calvinism is true, God is believing, not you. You are simply a programmed robot responding to the commands of God.
And I believe it was you that argued God doesn't have faith. How can he give you something he doesn't have? If God gives you what he has, that is not faith, for he knows he exists. -
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Do you consider that love?
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If I am one of the unelect, what does it matter if I question him? Will that make it any worse?
Jesus trusted his Father.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Jesus placed his spirit in his Father's hands. Look up the word commend, it means to entrust. Jesus willingly died and placed his spirit in his Father's hands and depended upon the Father to raise him from the dead.
This is funny, because I am arguing that God has faith and therefore could give faith to a man. You are arguing God doesn't have faith. If God doesn't have faith, how could he give it to a man? -
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How does the Biblical definition of faith fit in with what God has? What has God unseen? -
But if I am utterly enslaved by my desires I have no choice, even if it is offered. And if grace is irresistable, I have no choice there either. So either way, I am no more than a programmed robot.
As far as God having faith, Luke 23:46 says Jesus commended or trusted his spirit into his Father's hands. If the Word of God says it, that is good enough for me. -
If a man sees God for who He is and then sees himself as who he is how can he resist? Its like seeing your life as a dollar and then someone offering to trade you a million dollars for the dollar. This is only an analogy, but do you see how God can be irresistable in a non robotic but sovereign way without forcing a choice?
It reminds me of Mathew 13:44 the parable of the hidden treasure. -
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And that is the difference between hunger and appetite. When you have an appetite you only want foods you enjoy. But if you are truly hungry you will eat nearly anything, even brussel sprouts.
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