An answer to the sinless day

[Dale-c]

There is a certain member on this board who keeps claiming that he can go 24 hours without sin. He says there is nothing in the Bible to prove otherwise.

I will give it a shot lest he continue in his pride.


First of all lets try 1 John:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Ok, I know the response will be that this is talking about a lifetime of sin etc but think about this, it doesn't say "never sinned" it says "have no sin" that is a present tense.
In order to be at 2PM on your "sinless day" you would have to be absent of sin, you would have to be able to say that you "have no sin" At least at that point.

Those are pretty serious words for those that say they have no sin.

Ok, now another thing I thought of about the daily part of the equation, the Lord's prayer:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Notice this is a DAILY prayer, not a once in a lifetime prayer nor an "only on days we sin" prayer.



Not that I expect any change because short of a verse that says "thou canst remain sinless from the rising of the sun to the setting of the sun and the rising again", I don't think he will change.

But it should serve to reinforce to those that aren't silly enough to think they they are without sin or even can go without sin for a day.

 

[saturneptune]

There is a certain member on this board who keeps claiming that he can go 24 hours without sin. He says there is nothing in the Bible to prove otherwise.

I will give it a shot lest he continue in his pride.


First of all lets try 1 John:



Ok, I know the response will be that this is talking about a lifetime of sin etc but think about this, it doesn't say "never sinned" it says "have no sin" that is a present tense.
In order to be at 2PM on your "sinless day" you would have to be absent of sin, you would have to be able to say that you "have no sin" At least at that point.

Those are pretty serious words for those that say they have no sin.

Ok, now another thing I thought of about the daily part of the equation, the Lord's prayer:



Notice this is a DAILY prayer, not a once in a lifetime prayer nor an "only on days we sin" prayer.



Not that I expect any change because short of a verse that says "thou canst remain sinless from the rising of the sun to the setting of the sun and the rising again", I don't think he will change.

But it should serve to reinforce to those that aren't silly enough to think they they are without sin or even can go without sin for a day.

That is the best explanation I have heard. Thanks for putting it in better words than I could.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Your post is illogical and does not prove that one cannot be fully submitted to the hand of God for a 24 hour period of time.

 

[npetreley]

Well said, dale-c.

 

[saturneptune]

Your post is illogical and does not prove that one cannot be fully submitted to the hand of God for a 24 hour period of time.

On the contrary, his post is very well thought out and and in line with Scripture.

 

[Grasshopper]

On the contrary, his post is very well thought out and and in line with Scripture.

So what is the biblical maximum that one can go without sinning? Why is 24 hours any different than 24 minutes?

Disclaimer: I struggle to go 24 seconds without sinning so I'm not holding myself up as an example.

 

[npetreley]

So what is the biblical maximum that one can go without sinning? Why is 24 hours any different than 24 minutes?

Disclaimer: I struggle to go 24 seconds without sinning so I'm not holding myself up as an example.

I don't think anyone can know. God's standard of sinlessness is surely a LOT higher than any of ours. Jesus hammered home that point by saying we don't actually have to commit murder to break the commandments. Just being angry with a brother is bad enough.

I also think that's why John put it the way he did in 1 John. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves..." I don't think there's a moment in any day when we can say with confidence that "in the last moment, I was without sin in thought or deed".

 

[Dale-c]

The thing that hit me was it was more like a disease. IT says "have sin" not are sinning. I think that is interesting.

We will constantly "have sin" as long as we are in these imperfect mortal bodies.

 

[saturneptune]

So what is the biblical maximum that one can go without sinning? Why is 24 hours any different than 24 minutes?

Disclaimer: I struggle to go 24 seconds without sinning so I'm not holding myself up as an example.

There is no standard of time. That is my point.

 

[Baptist Believer]

On the contrary, his post is very well thought out and and in line with Scripture.

Sorry, it's not.

There's nothing in the passage that insists that believers are constantly involved in sin. Furthermore, if you actually move past that proof text into the rest of 1 John, it becomes obvious:

1 John 3:4-6 (NASB)

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

and

1 John 5:18

We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

You all need to stop interpreting scripture by your experience and instead understand that believers are supposed to experience significant and increasing victory over sin through transformation in Christ. The problem with most people in the Western World understanding this is that the church has ignored practical spiritual formation for many, many years and turned "salvation" into something that is merely for heaven that is received by affirming certain beliefs regarding the atonement and an acceptance of God's love for them. When you actually dig into the pages of the gospel and read what Jesus actually preached, you'll discover that Jesus calls people to follow Him (in a very active sense) and reorder their lives and priorities to enter into the fullness of his life.

Dallas Willard, as well as a number of others, has written extensively about the spiritual disciplines that give us practical insight on how to enter into holy living in the power of Christ.

 

[saturneptune]

Sorry, it's not.

There's nothing in the passage that insists that believers are constantly involved in sin. Furthermore, if you actually move past that proof text into the rest of 1 John, it becomes obvious:

1 John 3:4-6 (NASB)

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

and

1 John 5:18

We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

You all need to stop interpreting scripture by your experience and instead understand that believers are supposed to experience significant and increasing victory over sin through transformation in Christ. The problem with most people in the Western World understanding this is that the church has ignored practical spiritual formation for many, many years and turned "salvation" into something that is merely for heaven that is received by affirming certain beliefs regarding the atonement and an acceptance of God's love for them. When you actually dig into the pages of the gospel and read what Jesus actually preached, you'll discover that Jesus calls people to follow Him (in a very active sense) and reorder their lives and priorities to enter into the fullness of his life.

Dallas Willard, as well as a number of others, has written extensively about the spiritual disciplines that give us practical insight on how to enter into holy living in the power of Christ.

Sorry, it is. If you say you have no sin......need I complete the verse?
You said "significant and increasing victory." That is not perfection.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Sorry, it is. If you say you have no sin......need I complete the verse?

In the same letter, John writes that "no one who is born of God sins." So what do you do with that? Is only the part of 1 John that you like inspired?

If we go with your interpretation of 1 John 1:9 and claim that everyone sins constantly, the we have very bad news when we come to 1 John 5:18 that clearly states, "no one who is born of God sins."

You said "significant and increasing victory." That is not perfection.

We are not talking about perfection in this discussion, we are talking about practical holiness (sinlessness) for a 24-hour period.

When I write "significant and increasing victory," I am describing a gradual move away from a lifestyle characterized by sin into a lifestyle characterized by holiness and the power of the Spirit where a believer can go for a significant amount of time without sinning (including a 24-hour-day). This does not happen overnight (or even over a few months), but takes significant effort at transformation and a wholehearted reliance on the grace of God to make your efforts successful.

 

[saturneptune]

In the same letter, John writes that "no one who is born of God sins." So what do you do with that? Is only the part of 1 John that you like inspired?

If we go with your interpretation of 1 John 1:9 and claim that everyone sins constantly, the we have very bad news when we come to 1 John 5:18 that clearly states, "no one who is born of God sins."


We are not talking about perfection in this discussion, we are talking about practical holiness (sinlessness) for a 24-hour period.

When I write "significant and increasing victory," I am describing a gradual move away from a lifestyle characterized by sin into a lifestyle characterized by holiness and the power of the Spirit where a believer can go for a significant amount of time without sinning (including a 24-hour-day). This does not happen overnight (or even over a few months), but takes significant effort at transformation and a wholehearted reliance on the grace of God to make your efforts successful.

For the most part, I agree. Its a matter of the mature Christian, to a point. To me, it is hard for me to imagine a 24 hour period with no angry thoughts, no selfish motives, only holy thoughts. And practical things, like the speed limits, the stop sign, etc., how about not using every moment at work actually working, and those are just a few examples. How about sins we are not even aware of at the time. You point to a difference between 24 hours of perfectin and sinlessness. How do you define the difference?

 

[David Lamb]

For the most part, I agree. Its a matter of the mature Christian, to a point. To me, it is hard for me to imagine a 24 hour period with no angry thoughts, no selfish motives, only holy thoughts. And practical things, like the speed limits, the stop sign, etc., how about not using every moment at work actually working, and those are just a few examples. How about sins we are not even aware of at the time.

I agree. However, it seems to me that there is a danger of thinking of sin only in terms of committing certain acts and thinking certain thoughts. But Jesus Christ said in Luke 10.25:

"‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbour as yourself.’"​

Would any one of us dare to claim that we could do those things perfectly, even for one second, let alone 24 hours? I know I wouldn't.

We sin by leaving undone those things which we should do, just as much as by doing those things we shouldn't.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

For the most part, I agree. Its a matter of the mature Christian, to a point. To me, it is hard for me to imagine a 24 hour period with no angry thoughts, no selfish motives, only holy thoughts. And practical things, like the speed limits, the stop sign, etc., how about not using every moment at work actually working, and those are just a few examples. How about sins we are not even aware of at the time. You point to a difference between 24 hours of perfectin and sinlessness. How do you define the difference?

Being angry is not necessarily sin. It is 'being angry at your brother without a cause' that is sin.

Paul said, 'Be ye angry and sin not...' There are times when anger is not sin.

 

[Baptist Believer]

For the most part, I agree. Its a matter of the mature Christian, to a point. To me, it is hard for me to imagine a 24 hour period with no angry thoughts, no selfish motives, only holy thoughts.

You're right, it is very hard to imagine when we think of it as merely the absence of sin. However, if we think of it in terms of a day filled with good selfless good works and a mental focus toward serving God and other people, it becomes easier (but by no means easy) to imagine.

And practical things, like the speed limits, the stop sign, etc.

Actually, I've made significant progress in this area, although I didn't make achieve gains through trying to obey the speed limits and such, but by nurturing the spiritual disciplines of rest and solitude. I actually didn't notice my success until much later, when someone else pointed it out to me.

how about not using every moment at work actually working...(/quote]
That can be a tough one, but my workplace encourages me to take mental breaks from time to time instead of merely pounding away at every moment. They have discovered it actually boosts productivity and reduces distractions since the mind has an opportunity to briefly follow other interests. In fact, after my first few weeks on the job, I got calling into my supervisor's office because I was not spending much time talking with my coworkers. She told me that they wanted us to interact (within reason) so that it would build communication and encourage teamwork.

So I'm very fortunate compared to others, but your point is still valid. (Perhaps the real problem is the way your firm conducts business?)

How about sins we are not even aware of at the time.

Do you think God condemns us for sins for which the Spirit does not convict us? Ultimately God dealt with the sin issue at the cross. At this point, Christians are called to leave behind their old lifestyle of sin and move forward (through faith and effort) into a lifestyle taught by Christ.

You point to a difference between 24 hours of perfectin and sinlessness.

I don't believe in "perfection" the way that our Platonically-oriented culture portrays it. When we are called to be "perfect" (Matthew 5:48), we are called to be "complete/holy." For instance, I think Jesus probably hit His thumb with a hammer, fell a few times while He was learning to walk, and knew what it was like to be tired. Greek ideas of "perfection" do not allow for these things. It is a kind of Gnosticism that makes it difficult to believe that we can please God by our actions in the flesh, and serve Him in a way where sin in only an occasional lapse into the old habits.

That's why I avoid using the term perfection.

How do you define the difference?

Sinlessness is living by faith, fully and actively immersed in the life of Jesus, without being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit or doing (or not doing) things out of the bounds of the teaching of Jesus or the New Testament writers.

I am still a long way from that point at this time in my life, although I am working toward that goal and have made noticable progress.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I agree. However, it seems to me that there is a danger of thinking of sin only in terms of committing certain acts and thinking certain thoughts.

Good point.

But Jesus Christ said in Luke 10.25:

"‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbour as yourself.’"​

Would any one of us dare to claim that we could do those things perfectly, even for one second...

Not even for one second?

Really?

You can't love God and your neighbor with all you know yourself to be for one second?!

I believe I can for even longer than a second. And I'm convinced that most (if not all) who are reading this discussion can do it too. (I realize that this goes against what has normally been hammered into us since childhood in most churches.) Think about the times you have been in worship and have been singing God's praises from the very depths of your soul... Were you loving God with everything you know yourself to be?

...let alone 24 hours?

That's a much harder prospect, but if we can do it for a few seconds, by God's grace, He can enable us to do it for minutes, hours, and even days at a time if we cooperate with Him.

I know I wouldn't.

I'm guessing you could. Why do you pray about it and ask God for the ability to do it?

We sin by leaving undone those things which we should do, just as much as by doing those things we shouldn't.

Yes, but we are not called to do everything for everyone at all times... We are called to obey the leading of the Spirit. Remember Jesus didn't always heal everyone who had needs, sometimes He only worked with one (see John 5:2-15 for one example).

In churches today we tend to guilt people by laying responsibility for all of the needs of the world on individual Christians instead of seeing the world as a vast field were we minister together (and as individuals). And we condemn those faithful Christians who have labored well in their assigned portion of the field by claiming they are responsible for areas of the field that others have neglected.

Are you faithful according the the calling that God has placed on your life? If so, then you are doing very well.

 

[npetreley]

As others have put it, your definition of sin is too narrow.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Why didn't God give the law, "Thou shalt not look at another woman with lust" instead of "Thou shalt not commit adultery"? If the former is essentially the same as the latter, wouldn't have been more useful to say the former? Better yet, "Don't even look at a woman with lust, let alone commit adultery."

I don't see 1 John as contradicting itself because I think there are various aspects of sin and willful sinning, anywhere from ignorance to licentiousness. Having sin because we are human and imperfect and sinning willfully and licentiously are very different things. Comments in [] mine.

No Christian continually, willfully and/or knowingly sins.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin [continually, willfully and/or knowingly] also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin [continually, willfully and/or knowingly]. Whoever sins [continually, willfully and/or knowingly] has neither seen Him nor known Him.

But to say we are sin-free is a lie.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin [that we are without any sin at all at any given time], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[npetreley]

Not even for one second?

No, not even for one second. I don't have what it takes to do it perfectly, in a way that would meet the absolutely perfect righteous requirements of God. I don't think anyone in the flesh can do it even for one second. I don't mean living in the flesh (indulging it), I mean existing in the flesh. Through the power of God we can live better than we ever could have when we were unsaved, but I can't say that I can love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength even for one second while in the flesh.

 

[Baptist Believer]

As others have put it, your definition of sin is too narrow.

That's quite an assertion! How do you know what my definition of sin is?

Why didn't God give the law, "Thou shalt not look at another woman with lust" instead of "Thou shalt not commit adultery"? If the former is essentially the same as the latter, wouldn't have been more useful to say the former? Better yet, "Don't even look at a woman with lust, let alone commit adultery."

Looking at a woman whom you find attractive is a different thing than looking on a woman in order to lust after her.

But I really don't get your point, and I suspect its because I don't have the view of sin that you think I have.

I don't see 1 John as contradicting itself because I think there are various aspects of sin and willful sinning, anywhere from ignorance to licentiousness.

I actually don't see a contradiction either, but there would be if I were going along with the thinking of the original post.

No Christian continually, willfully and/or knowingly sins.

Yes. Christians (who have been properly discipled) are not going to live lifestyles where they are bound up in sin.

But to say we are sin-free is a lie.

That's right. And I don't think anyone has made that claim.