An "Ax to Grind!"

Me too.

 

No faith in jesus, no salvation/eternal life!

 

We deny that Man has a free will that is not bound by the human sin nature...

 

I agree, but sense the need to press the point.

"Free will" as some desire to express would be taken as unbounded.

But that is not the Scripture presentation.

Rather, the Scriptures place that not even a person can be saved by their own "will." ("... not by the will...")

The fallen will may make good choices, but the good choices are only that which resides among all choices available to the fallen. For example, one may choose from the market according to the appearance what they consider "good" yet even that good will decay into rot.

What the fallen will cannot do is choose perfection. Imperfection never can attain to perfection.

What can happen is that the "new creation" can choose perfection and can attain perfection.

Job rightly states, 4“Who can make the clean out of the unclean?
No one!"

And that is the estate of all the fallen. There is no ability to make a clean choice out of the unclean will.

Therefore, it is stated that the believer is a NEW creation.

 

Unsaved people are free to choose what they will be doing, but there are for them some items not available to even be chosen by and of themselves, such as coming to Jesus to get saved!

 

In our Old Line Primitive Baptist belief... The unsaved have no choice and I don't give you my opinion I let scripture speak and what are you brethren going to do with these verses from Romans?... Is Salvation your choice?... Brother Glen

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

None of that says sinners have no choice. Not sure how you even eisegeted that out of those verses.

 

I agree. Nor does it say (or imply) that sinners have a choice. The quoted verses appear to be about what God has done and the consequences of His actions without any mention of human choice or no human choice. Christ's blood shed on the cross for sinners protects the saved from the ultimate wrath of God ... however God chose to save them (Drawn by Irresistible Grace or A Free Will Choice).

 

Lol, go back and reread the passages. The "unsaved" have zilch to say in the matter.

 

This is a wonderful passage for it shows that there are three items involved.

The blood shed for all, for all are ungodly, and without that shed blood there is no justified ungodly.

What remained to be resolved following the shed blood for all was the matter of reconciliation.

For even after the blood was shed, it remains that "when we were enemies, we (those who believe) were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, ... saved by His life."

This is one passage in the journey in moving from the atonement blood being limited to only those saved, to agreeing with the statement by John that it was for the whole world. That the limit to the salvation was that reconciliation took a separate and direct act of intervention purposed and accomplished directly by the Father.

For if ever there was an enemy, it was me. Yet, while an enemy, "God, by the death of His Son" reconciled me. Therefore, I am saved by His life and not of my own will or efforts.

Too often (imo) the folks read this passage, and smush it all together as if there is one hodgepodge of stew, when the work of the Christ was far more and intricate.

 

They can and freely do choose to reject Jesus, as they prefer to stay in darkness.

 

Which is consistent with what John's opening remarks in his gospel account.

Such freely choose to turn from the light, to reject the light, to shun the light.

 

Think it was CS lewis that said that there are onky 2 groups of people, those who say to God "Thy will be done", while rest have God say to them "Thy will be done", as in going to Hell.

 

AMEN!... Brother Kentucky!... You brethren that are into exegesis, exegesis this... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

More references to "free will" but no insight on what it means or where it originates. Round and round we go.

God's children are told to have the "mind of Christ". Christ did not exercise His will, but obeyed the will of His Father.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Satan's children, the "natural man" are obedient to their father, the Devil.

So, for the Christian, he is not free to exercise his "free will", whatever that is contrived to be, but compelled by Christ's example, to submit to God's will.

 

Unfortunately you misunderstand that passage. The Natural man is not those who are lost but those who think, view the world, with worldly wisdom. Paul was not comparing the lost and the saved man he was comparing the worldly view with the wisdom of God. Paul did this to correct the Christians in Corinth who were acting through worldly wisdom. Paul was not calling them lost.

 

The natural man in that passage is the unsaved person

 

I know that is what calvies need to support their ideology but when you read the context as I just explained its not.

 

These passages say nothing as to the criteria for the selection of those chosen to eternal life.
That criteria and the identity of the elect may very well have been predecessor events to Romans 5:6-10.

i.e. In the A point of view God saw the elect through foreknowledge, In the C via decree. In either case the elect were a done deal.