I post this in a sincere desire to gain understanding of the Calvinist position in light of the arguments I have presented.
I know some of you will ridicule me for reposting an argument, but I have yet to receive any rebuttals for the clear scriptural support I have presented for Ephesians chapter 1 in regard to chapter 3. And the argument has now been buried under a host of unrelated comments and attempts to dismiss or redirect the original argument dealing with Ephesians.
I feel that my argument is solid, clear and that it contradicts the Calvinistic assumption while clearly supporting mine, yet it seems that no Calvinist on this board is able, or willing, to at least point out why they disagree with the points that I clearly lay out.
The argument that claims, “My support doesn’t merit a response," is completely unwarranted and absurd. Anyone who reads my arguments can clearly see that the text supports my assumptions while disproving the Calvinist’s rendering of the text. And is much more coherent and solid than the majority of Arminian posts on this board.
To read the argument in its entirety you can wade through the topic titled, “I’m Sorry, We all make assumptions, let’s START OVER.” But, if you’re anything like me you probably won’t take the time to do that so let me briefly recap my argument for you here:
Ephesians Chapter 1
1. My proven “assumption” is that God’s Sovereign predestination and election of individuals is limited only to those who were his divinely appointed messengers, namely the prophets and apostles, which were selected from the elect nation of Israel in order to usher in the new covenant of grace geniunely intended for all mankind.
2. Verses 3-12: Paul uses the pronouns “us” or “we” in reference to the apostles only, “who first trusted in Christ”. In which he UNIQUELY refers to:
a. Their election before the foundation of the world (vs. 4, 11)
b. Their revelation of the “mysteries” from God (vs. 9)
c. The predestination to adoption as sons (vs. 5, 11)
3. Paul’s use of the Greek word “kai” (and/also) and changes in the use of pronouns from “us/we” to “you” in verse 13 signifies a change in his referent, now referring to “all the saints” as apposed to just the apostles.
4. Though Paul in verse 13 and following does link his audience (the saints) back to the apostles comparing their “trust”; “belief”; and the “Holy Spirit guarantee”; he DOES NOT link them to the three unique characteristics of election/revelation of mysteries/or predestination.
5. Lest one argue that this link should be assumed (as did Pastor Larry) we must also see Paul’s statements in Ephesians 3:1-7 in which he states:
a. Their was a unique “dispensing” or “stewarding” of Grace to Paul on behalf of the saints. (vs. 2)
b. The “mysteries” he referred to in chapter 1, he emphasizes that they were uniquely revealed only to “God’s holy apostles and prophets.”(verses 3-5)
c. And he further describes his unique authority by referring to his “effectual calling” also linking us back to his words in chapter 1 verses 3-12. He says, “Wereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power.”
In Conclusion:
To uphold the Calvinistic assumption, which attempts to link the “you” referent of verses 13 and following to the “us/we” referent of verses 3-12, you would have to believe that Paul’s referent changed from “all the saints” in verses 3-5 to “only the apostles” in verse 9, and back to “all the saints” in verse 11. All the while over looking his change of pronouns, and ignoring his clarifying comments in chapter 3:7 concerning “effectual calling.”
My assumption is thus supported while the Calvinistic assumption fails in the light of this proof.
What say ye? I await your responses. Thanks for your time.
Sincerely Seeking the Knowledge of the Truth,
Bro. Bill
An Unanswered Argument for all the Bible Believing Calvinists
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 11, 2003.
Page 1 of 3
-
Bro.
Ephesians 1.1 states its audience to be "...to the faithful in Christ Jesus."
I believe our position is such that this is addressing that number in all ages, and time.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas -
I have a question just so I can understand your point better.
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Phillipians 1:6)."
Does this have any relevance for the church today, or any other Christians in the first century, or just to the believers at the church at Phillipi? -
Bro. Bill, BTW, I'm Paulician, not Calvinist or Arminian. lol
Rufus -
With Respect,
Bro. Bill -
-
Brother Bill,
In other words, the prophets and apostles did not have free will, but everybody else does? Is that what you are trying to say? I've asked that question several times, but you haven't answered it yet. Does Romans 8:29-30 only refer to the prophets and apostles? -
It is a view concocted of nothing but semantic games and smoke and mirrors, and is completely without merit.
Paul switches back and forth between "us" and "you" in simple, predictable conversational terms that are perfectly consistent with "us" referring to all believers, not just apostles. Moreover, while the silly we/they game "works" for some verses, it does violence to the text in others, Ephesians 1:19 being an example. I won't even bother expounding on the reason, since it should be self-evident, and I have already given more attention and energy to this ridiculous hypothesis than it deserves.
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.Click to expand...
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us apostles and kind of liked you, too, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us apostles and only us apostles alive together with Christ (because, unlike us, it is by free will you have been saved, whereas we were saved because we were specially selected), and raised us apostles up together, and made us apostles sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus to look down on you poor suckers who had to decide for yourself, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us apostles, and only to us apostles, not you second-rate folks, in Christ Jesus. For by free will you peons have been saved through faith, that is if you decided to believe of your own free will, and that is entirely of yourselves; not the gift of God, although it also wasn't of works, so that the only folks who can boast are we apostles, who get special treatment. For we are His special appointed apostolic workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we apostles should walk in them. As for what you folks do, I don't give a rip.
Yeah, Billism really has a lot going for it, doesn't it? -
Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
Brother Bill,
In other words, the prophets and apostles did not have free will, but everybody else does? Is that what you are trying to say? I've asked that question several times, but you haven't answered it yet. Does Romans 8:29-30 only refer to the prophets and apostles?Click to expand...
I'll be providing an intepretation on Romans soon, but I'd like to deal with one passage at a time for clarity sake.
Thanks,
Bro. Bill -
I don't have any problem saying that he began a good work in me and he will complete it, just like he does with everyone who believesClick to expand...
-
Originally posted by npetreley:
It is a view concocted of nothing but semantic games and smoke and mirrors, and is completely without merit.Click to expand...
Npetreley, let me ask you something. Did God reveal the mystries recorded in verse 9 to all the saints as your assumption warrants?
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us apostles and kind of liked you, too, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us apostles and only us apostles alive together with Christ (because, unlike us, it is by free will you have been saved, whereas we were saved because we were specially selected), and raised us apostles up together, and made us apostles sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus to look down on you poor suckers who had to decide for yourself, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us apostles, and only to us apostles, not you second-rate folks, in Christ Jesus. For by free will you peons have been saved through faith, that is if you decided to believe of your own free will, and that is entirely of yourselves; not the gift of God, although it also wasn't of works, so that the only folks who can boast are we apostles, who get special treatment. For we are His special appointed apostolic workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we apostles should walk in them.Click to expand...
This is what you missed:
Key principle: Whatever applies to all the saints also applies to the apostles, but whatever applies to the apostles may or may not apply to all saints.
Yeah, Billism really has a lot going for it, doesn't it?Click to expand...
I will say this on my own behalf, at least I address your arguments. You have yet to do that for me. I think I'll call that "Npetrelism" -- the ones who practice the avoidance of other's arguments while demeaning and ridiculing their beliefs and personality. Now, that has a lot going for it!
With Respect, (but just a little )
Bro. Bill -
Originally posted by Pete Richert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I don't have any problem saying that he began a good work in me and he will complete it, just like he does with everyone who believesClick to expand...
Every passage has an audience, issue, and a referent. In other words, it has those the author is addressing, the topic his is discussing, and finally the thing or person he is refering to.
1. We are not debating the audience here, as your argument seems to be indicating.
2. We are not debating the topic, we both agree on that as well.
3. We are debating the referent. Who is Paul refering to in verses 3-12 in light of verse 13 and following?
Who was Paul refering to when he say "he chose us in Him" and "we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined...that we WHO FIRST TRUSTED in Christ...".
What about when he said in verse 9, "made known to us the mystery of His will." Who does that refer too? Only the apostles, or all the saints?
That's the question in focus here. Let's deal with the issue, not random applications of issues we are not discussing here.
With Respect,
Bro. Bill -
By rufus:
Brother, verses 3-13 is a very long sentence in the original and syntactic exegesis dictates that everything in it relates in some way. Both Paul and the saints of Ephesus are included.Click to expand...
What say ye?
Bro. Bill -
[/QUOTE] Rufus, are you saying that Paul contradicts himself in 1:9 and in 3:3-5?
Bro. Bill, I would never EVER say that God's Word CONTRADICTS itself!! Not me, sir.
But I have been known to see contradictions in mens' interpretation of God's non-contradictory Word.
Friend in Christ, your interpretation of this issue is "new." The burden of proof is on you and, though you've tried, you have not established your case.
Don't think a non-response to many of your posts is a victory for your point of view. I prefer to adhere to what Paul said in the following passage:
2 Timothy 2: 22. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
24. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25. in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26. and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
God Bless
RufusClick to expand... -
Originally posted by rufus:
Click to expand...Bro. Bill, I would never EVER say that God's Word CONTRADICTS itself!! Not me, sir.Click to expand...
Your assumption is that Ephesians 1:3-12 is refering to all the saints and not just the apostles. Am I correct here? (I'll assume that I am)
Ok. In verse 9 it states, "[God]...Having made known unto US the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself."
Based on your assumption the "US" in this passage refers to "all the saints" whereas my assumption says he is speaking about the apostles only in this passage. Do you follow me so far?
Now, if your assumption is what Paul actually intended then he would be saying, "[God]...Having made known to 'all the saints' the mystery of His will...."
This statement is contradictory to what Paul teaches in Eph. 3:3-5 which teaches that the "mysteries of God" are only revealed to the "apostles and prophets."
Therefore, my assumption is supported by this text, showing that Paul was not refering to "all the saints" in verses 3-12 when he is using the "us/we" pronouns, but in fact was speaking about the apostles alone.
Please don't quote me a bunch of other texts without dealing with this argument first. How can your assumption that Paul is refering to all believers be supported with Eph. 3 in view?
Thank you for your time,
Bro. Bill -
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Therefore, my assumption is supported by this text, showing that Paul was not refering to "all the saints" in verses 3-12 when he is using the "us/we" pronouns, but in fact was speaking about the apostles alone.Click to expand...
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you GentilesClick to expand...
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for youClick to expand...
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Click to expand...
5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of menClick to expand...
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:Click to expand...
Now -- what mystery was it that was revealed to God's apostles and prophets?
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospelClick to expand...
So it's true (gasp) that Paul was talking about the apostles and prophets. And in that context, it makes perfect sense. It has nothing whatsoever to do with his election for salvation vs. our election for salvation, but what the heck? You're not the first to treat scripture like spandex to grind an ax. (This mixed metaphor brought to you courtesy of sleep deprivation.)
Please don't quote me a bunch of other texts without dealing with this argument first.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)Click to expand...
Now -- what mystery was it that was revealed to God's apostles and prophets?Click to expand...
Please deal with my arguments.
You still haven't mentioned anything about the "dispensation of Grace" in verse 2.
Or Paul's unique "effectual calling" in verse 7, both of which are in the context of showing his apostolic authority to his audience.
Please don't quote me a bunch of other texts without dealing with this argument first.Click to expand...[qb]Translation: Don't throw me off track with the truth.Click to expand...
When someone doesn't want to deal with an argument they have a tendency to change the direction by putting the focus on other issues. I'm trying to avoid that confusion. I'm really trying to be nice to you Npetreley but you're testing my patience.
Maybe it needs some testing.
God Bless,
Bro. Bill -
Bro Bill, I still state that Eph 1 is a moot point. You never addressed this. It doesn't say that if Paul is spekaing only of the apostles that that makes them elect and not everyone else. If we say for arguements sake, that you are right, how does this prove your arguement that all saints are not elect? I don't see that it does. And you have not proven that.
-
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Yes, there is a mystery at hand. A mystery to which he "has briefly written already"; Where? In Eph. 1:9, which you have failed to connect with this passage.Click to expand...
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in HimselfClick to expand...
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
His 'referent' here is obviously the apostles; you even say so when you wrote: "So it's true (gasp) that Paul was talking about the apostles and prophets."Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You go on to explain what the mystery was, but that is not the point.Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
The point is the referent. Who is he referring to in this text? The apostles only, because they are the only ones who received this "mystery."Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Yet your assumption forces the text in Eph. 1:9 to say that God revealed these mysteries to everyone instead of just the apostles as this text clearly points out.Click to expand...
Psst... Don't look now, but I think that Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit just let the cat out of the bag regarding this mystery. So much for God revealing it only to the apostles.
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Please deal with my arguments.Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You still haven't mentioned anything about the "dispensation of Grace" in verse 2.Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Or Paul's unique "effectual calling" in verse 7, both of which are in the context of showing his apostolic authority to his audience.Click to expand...
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of ChristClick to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
but it is difficult to keep focused on the issue at hand when people play the bait and switch game.Click to expand...
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
When someone doesn't want to deal with an argument they have a tendency to change the direction by putting the focus on other issues.Click to expand...
Page 1 of 3