Then read his sermon on Romans 2:13. He clarifies that justification there is future justification at the final judgment. Doers of the law are vindicated because their present justification has not only given them a right standing before God but that God equips the believer with the necessary obedience required for that final vindication.
Here is how G. K. Beale put it:He went on to cite Piper, Future of Justification, 184-186 specifically w/ Rom. 2:13 in mind. So I'm not the only one seeing this from scholars like Piper and Snodgrass. I think this view is very compatible w/ Wright's view of future justification.
Any hear Into NT Wright And the "new pauline perspective?"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Oct 31, 2012.
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Thanks for the link. I believe you have seriously misunderstood Piper on this. From the link you shared:
But is Romans 2:13b a hypothetical statement? When Paul says, "Not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified," does he really mean: They would be justified if there were any, but there aren't any "doers of the law." Or to put it another way, Does "doers of the Law" refer to sinless, perfect law-keepers? Could Paul call a person a "doer of the law" who sins, but who loves God and loves the law and hates his own sins and confesses them and casts himself on the mercy of God revealed in the law itself?
I think he could. And I think he does. So I believe verse 13 means: Not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the ones who will be acquitted at the last judgment will be those who 1) love God's law, and 2) depend on his help to live according to the truth that they have, and 3) trust God for his mercy when they stumble.
Hearing the Gospel Is Essential for Salvation
But now listen carefully, lest you misunderstand: Apart from the preaching of the Gospel, and the awakening work of the Holy Spirit that leads to faith in Christ, nobody is saved today* in this way. That's Paul's point in these first two-and-a-half chapters of Romans. The reason for this - the reason no one is saved in this way, apart from hearing the gospel of Christ - is that everyone without Christ "suppresses the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18). Everyone hardens his heart against repentance (Romans 2:5).
In other words, you might ask me (as some of you have), "Theoretically, could people be saved today who haven't heard of Christ, if they were "doers of the law" the way you described (namely, people who 1) love God's law, and 2) depend on God's help to live according to the truth that they have, and 3) trust God for his mercy when they stumble)? And I would answer, "Yes, theoretically they would be saved" (and God would cover their sins by the blood of Christ, similar to the way he did for the saints in the Old Testament), but it never happens. The reason we need aggressive, loving evangelization among all the peoples of the world is because people everywhere suppress the truth and will not yield to God without the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit in their lives (Romans 1:18), and this Spirit works savingly only through the Gospel of Christ crucified and risen. God has shut all men up in disobedience (Romans 11:32) so that his Son, Jesus Christ, will be the conscious Object of faith among all the peoples (see Acts 4:12; Romans 10:13-15). (See further support in John Piper, Let the Nations Be Glad [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1993], pp. 131-166.)
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/there-is-no-partiality-with-god-part-2 -
from the same sermon.
And what does it mean there? Verse 7 says that, at the judgment, those who "by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, [will receive] eternal life." So here in this very context, Paul is teaching that eternal life (which is essentially the same as being justified or acquitted at the last judgment) is given only to those who have been so transformed by faith that they "persevere in doing good" (see sermon on Romans 2:6-11, December 7, 1998, "The Final Divide, Part Two"). But if this was his teaching in verses 6-10 (which, interestingly, John Stott agrees with, Romans, p. 84), then that is probably his teaching in verse 13.
For all these reasons I take Romans 2:13 as a simple statement of actual fact, "Doers of the law will be justified." -
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Thomas15, thinking out loud. "Why do some who claim to be Baptist have such a great affection for the theologians of the COE such as Packer, Stott and Wright? Do they share the COE views of the fundamentals of the faith, Biblical authority, the communion table, the person of Christ, infant baptism and so forth? Do they have a deep appreciation for the direction the COE is heading with respect to the social gospel?"
Thomas15 will admit to one thing, he never cared for Piper until he read his reaction to Wright. -
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I also really enjoy Christopher JH Wright. :) -
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
sooooo...... nice if you's spell it out on occasion:smilewinkgrin:. -
Unfortunately, our churches have also largely dropped the ball in this area. It’s insufficient for youth groups and Sunday school classes to focus on entertainment and simpering devotional thoughts. We’ve got to train our kids for war. We dare not send them out to public high school and university armed with rubber swords and plastic armor. The time for playing games is past. – William Lane Craig -
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17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Ja 2
Those that hold strictly to 'sola fide' should be concerned that the only passage to be found that makes mention of 'faith alone' is this one:
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1793086#post1793086
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=77641 -
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Shouldn't this discussion be in the "other denoms" forum? The NPP impacts more than just Baptists and, if people follow the posting rules then they may not be chiming in here because they aren't Baptists. That of course assumes people follow the posting rules............. :smilewinkgrin:
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However, I don't really even understand your point. -
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Be a pal and before it's too late, send Bishop Wright an email letting him know that his beloved church is sinking in some kind of moral swamp. That is of course unless you agree with the direction the COE, the highly influential Bishop Wrights denomination is headed.
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