And what is your definition of "significant academic"? Catholics, I suppose.
Again, I believe you have a biased outlook of history.
No Baptist worth his salt would research history using only one source of information, or one kind of source--revisionist history. There are plenty of Baptist history resources out there. Why do you ignore them over and above Catholic and secular resources that would lead you to a different conclusion.
A simple study of the RCC doctrine in contrast to the Bible would lead you to the conclusion that the RCC is not, never was, and never will be a "Christian Church." Have you listed the doctrines of the RCC and then compared them to the Bible? Have you actually taken the time to do that?
Are RCC and OC (should through in the Copts just to be fair) Saved?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, May 18, 2009.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
And yes I am currently doing just what you are asking. Reviewing the CCC and comparing it to scripture. There are some things I hesitate about others I understand better. But I'm not done yet. Have you picked up a CCC and compared it to scriptures? Also I'm in discourse with my family and preist as well as my pastor (who is a baptist though many may not like the fact he graduated from Gordon Conwell). However, I've other contacts through out the christian plethora of denominations. I'm not done yet. (Its a big book) Outline seems simple enough. Take each aspect of the revised Nicean Creed and expound. -
What were Martin Luther's 95 Theses, and why did he post them?
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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I am not sure what your question was.
Remember, I was alone without any creed or catechism. Try this. Think as an average Catholic would think (or even above average). None of us have any creed (as in Nicene) memorized, nor the Catechism. What we are well acquainted with are those doctrines which affect our daily living.
Living alone, I put myself back into the shoes of my former Catholic self.
I couldn't go to mass. Missing mass was a mortal sin. If I were to die I would go to hell. I had no opportunity to confess my sin to a priest, for there was no priest around. Thus:
1. What was the purpose of the mass, and where is it found in the Bible?
2. What about purgatory: its purpose, where is it in the Bible?
3. What about confession of sin to a priest--why couldn't God forgive my sins, as Christ forgave sins of others in the Bible.
4. I had an assurance of salvation as a Christian; why didn't I have one as a Catholic? Where was this system in the Bible?
6. I prayed (or used to) the rosary. Where in the Bible is praying to Mary? Did anyone pray to Mary in the Bible? Or, anyone else but God and Jesus?
7. As I read the Bible I read that in each and every case a person repented and was baptized, or believed and was baptized. That wasn't so in the RCC. I was baptized as an infant. I was unable to believe or repent. Why baptism as an infant? What was the purpose of that and what was the Biblical precedent?
7. What was the purpose of indulgences? Were they in the Bible?
8. Indulgences were connected to Purgatory? Is it true that I had the power to "pray" someone out of purgatory, or at least shorten their time? Where is an example of that in the Bible?
9. Where are popes mentioned in the Bible.
I just went down a list of those things that affect me in my life. I didn't need a catechism. I was familiar enough with the RCC doctrine to know that these things were wrong and contradicted the Bible. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
However, a devoute catholic would have a different answers than I. I barely knew my faith. Now the CCC would answer you on these particular issues this way:
1. Mass : "Forsake not the fellowship"
2.Purgatory: like the trinity is made up of several verses but the premeire verse is from the apochrypha 2 Macc 12:45. Though there are allusions to it in Mt 18:32-34; Lk 12:59; Mt 12: 31-32; and 1 Cor 3:11-15.
3. Confession: "Confess your sins one to another"
4. Assurance of Salvation: Primarily Catholics believe you can be apostate. However, they also provide for assurance in the CCC. But not to the extent that you are "presumptious". Thinking you can do what ever you want.
6. Rosary and prayers to Mary. Nowhere does it say pray to Mary in the bible though the CCC states that Gabriel gave Mary respect. And Jesus told John at the cross "Behold your mother" as an example for the church (not my words but the CCC and the quotes from the bible). and followed "mother behold your son" showing a certain relationship there. Though this verse is often used to explain how Mary never had other children as well. Saying why would Jesus give John responsibility and not siblings as should be the case for a Jewish family.
7. Indulgences: I really have no idea. I suspect to work on sanctification
8.Yeah I guess if your sanctified that you have no need for it is reduced
9. Popes. All bishops at one point were referred to as Papa or Father. Pope is just a derivative of Papa.
Having grown up in africa myself a cheiftan or someone in authority is called father out of respect. Its cultural. So I guess it was the case in the Mediterranian basin.
But then many things we do in service isn't mentioned in the bible either. Alter calls for instance. We have our own traditions as well. -
Mass correctly put is "the sacrifice of the mass," where every day, all over the world, Christ is sacrificed again and again and again. This goes hand in hand with the "communion" that they celebrate, which the mass is centered around. It is transubstantiation--the sacrifice of the actual blood and body of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of this is heresy.
What does the Bible say:
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
The verses quoted from the NT can in no way support any concept of Purgatory.
Mat.18:32-34--This is a parable. Here is the conclusion and application of the parable as given by Jesus
Matthew 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
--The emphasis is on forgiveness. He was teaching on forgiveness. In a parable not everything has literal meaning. His emphasis was that man should forgive. One person forgave great; the other forgave not at all. God showed great forgiveness toward us by sending us his son. Ought not we to show forgiveness to one another?
Luke 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
--He is using the illustration of a justice system. How does that relate to purgatory? It does not.
Mat.12:31,32--What has blasphemy of the Holy Spirit got to do with purgatory? It has nothing to do with it. It is my personal opinion that with a proper exposition of this passage one can see that it is impossible to commit this sin today. There is no mention of purgatory here, not hell, not anything that even relates to the whole concept of it.
1Cor.3:11-15--We all know that this passage refers to the judgment seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with purgatory, but it is an event that takes place in heaven where all believers shall give an account before God. How does it in any way relate to a concept of purgatory?
There is no concept of purgatory in the Bible
Here is what the Scripture does say.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--There is only one person that can come between us and God, and that is Christ himself. He alone is our mediator; not a priest. Only Christ can forgive sins.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--There is no condemnation, none. No matter what I do, I will never be condemned.
Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
--My sins, all of them, have been completely removed.
Other disciples had fled from the scene for they were afraid.
The other siblings of Jesus: James, Jude (authors of their respective books in the NT) did not get saved until after the resurrection. Jesus would not allow his mother in such a dangerous time to be put into the care of an unsaved person even if that person was an unsaved son of Mary.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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I find that your best argument is experientially. If Baptismal Regeneration was valid why was I so secular before accepting Jesus as my personal savior? Was it as my family has stated just dormant? Well then the Holy Spirit is suppose to fill you when you receive your first communion and confirmation. Yet I could have cared less about God for first communion (being young and all). For confirmation it was a couple years after that that I left the RCC. I call it Christianity in Practice. However, saying that I'm not blowing off accurate history because it doesn't align with my beliefs of scripture or theology. -
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."
1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).
--This is no mere celebration. This is the actual "transubstantiation--the turning of wine and bread into the blood and body of Jesus Christ, or a re-sacrificing of Christ Himself. He was once sacrificed for sins. Despite what they say, they sacrifice him over and over again through their doctrine of transubstantiation. It is in their catechism.
Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
--The emphasis is forgiveness. Jesus is teaching on forgiveness. Don't draw doctrine out of the parable that is not there.
Throughout the NT, there is an emphasis on forgiveness. It is one of the characteristics of a Christian. What on earth does this have to do with purgatory? Please explain. It is a parable--an earthly story teaching a heavenly truth about forgiveness. There is no mention of purgatory.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--In what age will his sins be forgiven him?
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--In what age?
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
--There is no purgatory here. Our works (not our sin) will be judged. This event is called the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
--No purgatory here.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
--No purgatory here; only our works are judged.
I quoted you Scripture that there is only one mediator between man and God, and that is Christ himself. The Bible does not contradict itself. Furthermore, it also says:
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
--We have physical fathers; not spiritual fathers. We are commanded not to call any man "father." God alone is our Father.
Here is the verse in its entirety and not taken out of context:
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
--The context is prayer.
James 5:16 Confess your offenses to one another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effective, earnest prayer of a righteous man is powerfully effective. (WEB)
--Those things that offend we need to let one another know that we may pray more effectively. The Bible teaches that if we have offended our brother we need to go to him and reconcile ourselves to him. This is the teaching here. There is no confessional. It is a time of prayer. Effectual prayer is when you know what to pray for. Every believer is a priest before God. There is no such thing as a class of priests.
Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
--We have a great high priest--Christ Himself.
Each of us are priests, and therefore are able to come right before the throne of God, boldly, just as the high priests of the OT were able to do.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
So, I'm glad I'm able to give you guys insite with what I've been dealing with for years through my father. However, one thing is clear Scriptures are used and both protestants and Catholics claim it as an authoritative source. Are they Christian? DHK you say no. Or if they are they're decieved or spiritually immature. However, I think they feel the same way about us. -
Things like the trinity are a no-brainer. The teaching is in the Scriptures--1 John 5:7 being the clearest statement of the trinity in the Bible. Even without that verse it is not difficult to demonstrate that each person of the Godhead is deity. As far as words are concerned we don't have theology (the study of God) in the Bible either. I hope they do study about God. There are many words we use that are not in the Bible. It wasn't written in English (originally).
But the concept of purgatory is not in the Bible. One simply must take the Scriptures deeper, and show that the context of each of the passages used are not in any way speaking of purgatory. There are only two places mentioned in Scripture that are forever: hell which is ultimately thrown into the lake of fire, which is eternal; and heaven. There is no concept anywhere where believers must suffer through fire. Only unbelievers will suffer in hell or in any hell-like place. Purgatory is just not there. You have the opportunity to show them the Scriptures. I don't. Use that opportunity to the best of your ability. God bless you as you do. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The trinity is taught; not inferred.
It is taught clearly that God is one; that there is only one God (Isa.43:10,11)
It is taught clearly that Christ is God (John 1:1,14; 10:30ff; Acts 20:28; etc.)
It is taught clearly that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:1-4)
In Matt.3 we see all three of these persons present at the Baptism of Jesus: Christ, physically; the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, and the voice of the Father from Heaven. But there is only one God.
All three are mentioned in the Great Commission ..."baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
--But there is only one God.
The trinity is forcefully taught throughout the Scriptures. It is not inferred. It is taught.
There is not a single reference that teaches purgatory when the reference is taken in context. Not one. One must do a lot of mental gymnastics in order to make a verse teach purgatory. There is no such concept taught.
Here is something to think about. The person that believes in purgatory does not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Why? Because if Jesus died and paid the penalty for our sins, there would be no need for purgatory where one must be further "purged" or further pay the penalty for their sins. It is a denial of the all sufficiency of the blood of Christ; a denial of the full atonement of the blood of Christ. A belief in purgatory is a denial of Christ paying the penalty for our sins. -
And I already answered the OP on another thread, about 2 weeks ago.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1404403&postcount=2
And I have answered this before, as well.
What real purpose would multiplied redundancy serve?
Or are they now giving 'extra credit' for additional redundancy???
Ed -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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Lay your treasures up in heaven, where moth and rust does not corrupt. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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For instance Arius in around 300AD held that the Son [Jesus Christ], while divine and like God, was created by God as the agent through whom he created the universe, and thus that there was a time when the Son was not.
Another instance was Nestorius, he taught that the Virgin Mary gave birth to a man, Jesus Christ, not God the Logos. The Logos only dwelt in Christ, as in a Temple (Christ, therefore, was only Theophoros: the "Bearer of God.") Consequently, the Virgin Mary should be called Christotokos ("Mother of Christ") and not Theotokos ("Birth-giver of God").
So sure the Trinity concept is found in Holy Scripture, but exactly how the 3 coexisted wasn't exactly clear, as noted above. Thus through the Councils, the Church reaffirmed what had always been taught regarding this issue from the beginning.
In XC
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There are many things in the Bible I don't understand. But if the Bible teaches them, then I accept them by faith.
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