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Featured Arminianism and Calvinism part 2

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    AUGUST 11, 2015
    Watershed Differences Between Calvinists and Arminians
    Interview with John Piper


    A listener to the podcast, Peter from Seattle, writes in: “Pastor John, what is the main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism? I’m trying to explain this difference to my 13-year-old son and would love to boil it down to one or two watershed differences. What would those be?”

    Okay, I am going to give him more than he asked for. Then I am going to give him what he asked for, okay? I think it will be helpful for me to walk through the so-called five points because these five points are what the Arminian Remonstrance in 1610 threw back at the Calvinists. The Calvinists didn’t come up with five points to start with. The Calvinists wrote their vision of what salvation looks like and how it happens under God’s sovereignty. When the Arminians read it, they said, “These are five places we don’t agree.” That is where we got these five points. So, if you want to talk about what is the key soteriological differences between Arminianism and Calvinism, you have to take these one by one.

    “The key difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is in the way they understand how we get saved.”
    So here is what I will do. I will give one sentence for each Calvinism and Arminianism under the five points, and then I will say what I would say to my 13-year-old.

    1. Depravity— Calvinism says people are so depraved and rebellious that they are unable to trust God without his special work of grace to change their hearts so that they necessarily and willingly — freely — believe. Arminians say, with regard to depravity, people are depraved and corrupt, but they are able to provide the decisive impulse to trust God with the general divine assistance that God gives to everybody.

    2. Election — Calvinism says that we are chosen. God chooses unconditionally whom he will mercifully bring to faith and whom he will justly leave in their rebellion. Arminians say God has chosen us, elected, to bring to salvation all those whom he foresaw would believe by bringing about their own faith— providing the decisive impetus themselves. In those, God doesn’t decisively produce the faith that he foresees.

    3. Atonement — Calvinism says in the death of Christ God provided sufficient atonement for all but designed that it be effective for the elect. Meaning, it purchased for them the new covenant promise that God would bring about in his people faith and perseverance. Arminians say in the death of Christ God provided a sufficient atonement for all and designed that it would become effective by virtue of faith for which we, not Christ, provide the decisive impetus. Meaning, faith itself is not purchased by the cross, but that it is the human means of obtaining what the cross purchased; namely, forgiveness of sins.

    4. Grace or New Birth — Calvinists say that the new birth is God’s work of renewal in our hearts that necessarily brings about the act of willing, hearty, saving faith. Arminians say the new birth is God’s work of renewal in our hearts in response to our act of saving faith.

    5. Perseverance — Calvinists say God works infallibly to preserve us in faith — all of us who are truly born again — and that no one is ever lost who was truly born of God. Arminians say God works to preserve his people, but does not always prevent some who were born again from falling away to destruction.

    So what is the one thing dad would say to a son? Because those are all heavy. Those words are carefully chosen. Those words would be hard to get, and they might need years to work through that. I did a seminar on the five points. But let me close with a question, trying to answer the question that the dad asked. I would like to say that the one key difference is the sovereignty of God, but that won’t work, because the Arminians won’t like that since they affirm the sovereignty of God too. They just mean something a little more limited by it.

    So here is what I would say to my 13-year-old. I would say the key difference is how we get saved. The key difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian is how they understand how we get saved; that is, how we move from a condition of spiritual unbelief to a condition of heartfelt belief or faith in Christ. And the key difference is this: Calvinists believe that God has to produce in us the decisive desire for Christ. Arminians believe we must produce in ourselves the decisive desire for Christ. The Arminians say that God helps us. He helps all people, but we provide the last, decisive impetus and desire for that belief.

    Or I might say it like this: You can tell if someone is an Arminian or a Calvinist by how they answer the question, “What was the decisive cause of your faith in Christ?” So you go up to somebody and you ask, “What was the decisive cause of your faith in Christ? Was it God or was it yourself?” And the Calvinist says, “The decisive cause of my faith was God” and the Arminian says, “The decisive cause of my faith in Christ is myself.”
    Watershed Differences Between Calvinists and Arminians | Desiring God
     
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  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I would venture to say you could ask one thousand Arminians that question about the cause of decisive faith in Christ and not one would say they themselves were the origin.

    This is just another example of the Calvinist putting words in another's mouth and this time it is being done in a literal sense. Literally making up dialogue. Shameful.


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  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Van answers that he is the cause of faith. Faith, in his view, comes before God saves.

    The Apostle Paul tells us about his reconciliation and clearly states that faith comes from God. God filled Paul with faith and love.

    1 Timothy 1:12-14
    [12]I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength to do his work. He considered me trustworthy and appointed me to serve him,
    [13]even though I used to blaspheme the name of Christ. In my insolence, I persecuted his people. But God had mercy on me because I did it in ignorance and unbelief.
    [14]Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus.

    The problem with most Americans is they have little concept of cause and effect. They'll look at you dumbfounded when you ask the question. That's because they genuinely have never thought about it. They just said a little prayer, go to church to feel good and then live their week as though God were on the shelf waiting for next Sunday.
     
    #4 MennoSota, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
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  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    And does Van self-identify as an Arminian?

    I think it is awesome that you have surveyed most Americans and intimately know their attitudes and beliefs on matters of faith. Also know their testimonies! What an incredible accomplishment! Congratulations on your exhaustive study. Have you published?



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  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    LOL, do you have anything remotely close to the topic that you want to discuss or are you just planning on talking nonsense?
     
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  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Your topic is built on a false premise and not worthy to discuss.

    Basically a strawman.

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  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Why post then?

    The problem is you make a claim that I am using a faulty premise, yet you don't have any premise for your comments. Thus, the strawman is you.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Confused Arminians are Arminians still....They might be closer to truth if they were Arminians in every way.because someone is confused does not mean they are not there....most Arminians plead the 5th nowadays....osas.
    A Calvinist who does not fully understand how to explain perseverance of the saints will still be spoken of as Calvinistic.
     
  10. Batt4Christ

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    I would seriously disagree. I HAVE asked many times, where salvation comes from. While many say "the LORD", the vast majority of Arminian-leaning folks (though most don't know what that means) say "I searched for God", and all go back them CHOOSING Jesus.


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  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Maybe, but the statement was "the cause of my faith was myself". I've never heard anyone say that.
     
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    ...other than Van...
     
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  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I don't read Van's posts and I certainly wouldn't trust your description of them so I can't say one way or the other if he believes in this way.

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  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Your honesty is refreshing.
     
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Bingo!!!!
     
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  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    IIRC, he builds an entire soteriology based on one verse in Matthew 23.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Either all sinners are spiritual dead, and only God can wake them up, or else all sinners are spiritual dead, and yet still have the mneans to wake themselves up!
     
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Who is IIRC? It sounds like a government agency to me.
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    IIRC = If I Remember Correctly.

    jesus the calvinist.jpg
     
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  20. Batt4Christ

    Batt4Christ Member
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    Actually, most don't have a clue. They just believe they felt "convicted" so decided to ask Jesus into their heart... (barf).

    Armenianism- salvation that includes too many "I's"


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