Atonement

I believe that those who do not believe are judged already and condemed because they do not believe in Christ.

 

I would word it as I believe that the atonement canceled out the debt or accusations against us. The law is fulfilled in Christ and there is no condemnation in Him. Those who believe are not condemned but those who do not believe stand condemned already because they have not believed.

That is as simple as I am able to state it. It is completely Christ-centered (not centered on the law but on Christ).

I hope this helps explain my view and where we depart.

 

I said that thise who do not believe are already condemned because they do not believe in Christ. The verse you now say is beyond borderline but is a heresy (post 170) was written by John and spoken by Christ.

Had I referenced my post as Scripture (it was) would you still consider it heresy? Probably....but you would have kept that heresy to yourself. The sad part is you seem to have not noticed it was Scripture you were opposing.

 

Thread will be closed this evening. It has exceeded the number of posts. Feel free to start another.

 

I will when I get home.

 

We should never let the secular define God. Perhaps that is why you viewed my statement that that the lost are already condemned because they do not believe in Christ as "not plausible".

 

No problem. @Reformed is right - we wright for those who are not actually involved in the thread.

I am getting back and cannot adequately address your question at this time. I will , and if you have more then please feel free to copy my reply onto a new thread - just let me know.

I do not expect us to agree, but I would like you to understand where I am coming from.

The beach was nice, BTW. But there was a lot of jelly fish washed up this morning.

 

To me it does, but perhaps because “debt” is an English word that means something other than “penalty” against us. “Debt contains baggage. It is rarely used in Scripture to describe man and sin (it is used to describe, depending on translation, the charges of the law against man which have ben canceled out….but this goes back to metaphor).

Quite simply, Christ IS the fulfillment of the law. The Law and the prophets bore witness to God’s righteousness manifested apart from the law.

No. see my last comment.

No. Fulfillment in terms of God’s righteousness manifested apart from the law – i.e., the “New Covenant”.

No. Fulfillment as the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law, not through it.

I would say that the law is fulfilled in Christ because it demonstrates not only the moral righteousness of Christ but also the moral righteousness of God’s people. It is not an issue of “obeying the Law” but an issue of being “in Christ”. God causes us to obey.

No. Human beings enter the world under the curse of sin. They will die. This is the wages of sin that all share. But they have not sinned until they sin.

No. I think it is obvious that disbelief is not the root of all sin. Scripture tells us that the root of all sin is human desire when man gives into temptation and our lusts “conceive” and produce sin. Adam, for example, believed. Yet Adam sinned. We have to stay closer to Scripture (Consider James 1-3).

No. What I mean by “it” is redemption. Redemption is entirely Christ-centered.

No. The unbelievers are condemned already. They are condemned because they have not believed. This is something @davidtaylorjr considered the passage “not plausible”, but it is a reference to John’s words in Scripture.


Now that I have answered each question I am going to close the thread. Please feel free to start another address whatever questions you feel need more conversation.



I’ve enjoyed our dialogue here – even though we do disagree. You have helped solidify a few points in my own mind.

 

This thread is closed due to the number of posts (we are over 200 posts).

Please feel free to start another thread, either to address something in this one or to branch out in a new direction.