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Babies in hell?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Jan 31, 2019.

?

Are people born 'hellbound' due to Adam's transgression?

This poll will close on Aug 31, 2019 at 2:09 PM.
  1. Yes

    52.6%
  2. No

    47.4%
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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Acquitting the guilty and condemning the just—both are detestable to the Lord.[Proverbs 17:15 HCSB]

    Now, if babies are born innocent, then God commanded Israel to kill innocent babies in 1 Samuel 15. :(
     
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5

    You hardshells are all about 'all men' being condemned through one man's sin but totally skip the part about 'all men' receiving the free gift to justification of life through one man's act of righteousness.

    If it weren't for these 2-3 verses in Romans 5 that reveal the TYPE contained in Adam there wouldn't be a doctrine of 'Adam's curse'.
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You gave @Aaron a 'winner' for his reply and you're now running with it, so explain Aaron's reply. What did he mean?
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ….convulsions...
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Actually "Babies In Hell" is an attention grabber, the issue is the poll question.
     
    #85 kyredneck, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent point of discussion. Expound.
     
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Original sin states that all men born in Adam, which is all mankind, stand guilty, as Adam represented all mankind. If babies are born innocent, then they are not born dead in Adam, but are tabula rasa born with a blank slate, which is what Pelagius taught, and was found to be heresy by the Council of Carthage in 418 and the Council of Ephesus in 431.
     
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  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You two hillbillies have an audience I couldn't sleep its 3:43, I want to see where this is going?... Brother Glen:)
     
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  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    That's HALF of it. The other HALF is:

    18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This is my point. You hardshells are OK with the first Adam's impact on all mankind but refuse to recognize the second Adam's impact on all mankind.
     
    #90 kyredneck, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...well I'd hope not, it's the middle of the day! :D
     
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    That being the case what are you doing on here, shouldn't you be on your Rhino 700 or did the missus take it?:D... Well the wife is dragging me back to bed, have to get my beauty sleep... You two hillbillies behave yourselves and don't kill each other while I'm gone:Wink... California signing out... Brother Glen:)
     
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  13. Forever Settled

    Forever Settled Active Member

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    Rom. 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


    Rom. 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


    Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.


    Rom. 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.


    Rom. 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


    So what do "we" see here?


    "we" - 16 times;

    "our" - 4 times;

    "us" - 4 times;


    There is a specific group Paul is writing about", "we".


    This group, "we", Paul describes and identifies as follows:


    "have been justified" (v.1)

    "have peace with God" (v.1)

    "rejoice in our sufferings" (v.3)

    "God's love has been poured into [their] hearts" (v.5)

    "the Holy Spirit has been given to [them]" (v.5)

    "justified by His blood" (v.9)

    "shall be saved by him from the wrath of God" (v.9)

    "are reconciled" (v.10)

    "shall be saved" (v.10)

    "also rejoice in God (v.11)

    "have now received reconciliation" (v.11)



    Very obviously, "we" does not refer to "everyone", it only refers to those who are saved (or by extension, the elect). It does not refer to "every single individualgg.


    Then Paul uses the phrase, "all men". What you (and others) don't seem to realize is that this can be interpreted in different ways, and only one way takes the context ("we", the elect) into account.


    1) Paul could be immediately and arbitrarily changing the topic of discussion from "we" (the justified) to "all men everywhere, saved and condemned). Why would he, and what is in the context to suggest an abrupt "change" in the subject matter?


    2) Paul could be referring to "all men" among the group he is already discussing, namely all of "we".


    There seems no reason to assume the first interpretation, since there is nothing in the context to warrant it, and since the only reason to hold that interpretation is due to a biased doctrine of "universal salvation" one may need to defend.
     
    #93 Forever Settled, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  14. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Member

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    Though we're all born in sin, can we be declared quilty before the law comes?

    Romans 7:9 KJVS
    [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    John 15:22 KJVS
    [22] If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

    Psalm 139:15-16 KJVS
    [15] My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. [16] Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
     
  15. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Pardon me, but I must ask, are you saying that Wesley had it right?

    And a second question, was there a difference in the spiritual state of the babies pre- and post-Cross?
     
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  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Bruh, you are the hardshell, not I.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If babies are bodily resurrected as they were in a baby’s body, then by implication, elderly ppl will be raised with old decrepit bodies, too. Babies will not be resurrected as babies in the eternal state, imo. Just as elderly ppl will not be raised with the old aged body.
     
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  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I believe we have the law already written on our hearts from birth.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    When you judge babies, you judge according to the outward appearance. God judges the heart, and He is no respecter of persons. When you say "babies in hell" you're imagining not merely one who is innocent by worldly standards, you're imagining something like what we see and feel when we hear about atrocities being committed against infants.

    But that's just your imagination. In the Resurrection of both the just and the unjust Acts of the Apostles 24:15, will those who died in infancy be raised as infants? Of course not. And their spirits aren't infantile. They aren't innocent. And they will confess God's righteousness in His judgment of them.

    There is only one Door into Heaven, and only faith unlocks that door. It's by grace through faith that one enters Heaven, and that goes for everyone. Now the question will be, Can an infant exercise faith? Well, not on its own, of course. But neither can a 45 year old man with a genius level IQ. Faith is not a cognitive exercise. It is a spiritual exercise. Yes, infants can exercise faith. The things of God are spiritually discerned. The Spirit bears witness with what? Our minds? No. Our spirit. Romans 8:16 And if you're thinking that your cognitive abilities are anything but a hindrance to faith, and the lack thereof in others gives them an excuse, do you really know God?

    Making His Gospel known to the soul in the womb takes no more of a supernatural act than His making His Gospel known to you.
     
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  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned.
    13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
    14Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.
    15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man's trespass the many died, how much more have the grace of God and the gift overflowed to the many by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ.
    16 And the gift is not like the one man's sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification.
    17 Since by the one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
    18 So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.
    19 For just as through one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
    [Romans 5 HCSB]

    In this passage, Paul speaks of the federal headship of both Adams. Adam in the Garden, represented all mankind, as all of us are his progeny. The last Adam, the Christ, represented His ppl, the elect, the sheep. That is very important when viewing vss 18 & 19. “Through the one trespass”...this refers to Adam’s sin and there is condemnation for everyone, seeing all of us are in him at birth. Everyone here is referring to his progeny, all mankind. “So also through one Man’s obedience”... this is referring to the Christ’s obedience and there is life-giving justification to all His progeny, namely the elect, the sheep.

    There is no justification for anyone outside of the Christ. If babies are born innocent, they are born in the Christ. Then later on, they become lost and are now in a state of condemnation. Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus...yet many say babies later become condemned. :(
     
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