You most certainly do misrepresent what we think. And you do so through simply human logic, not a logic that tries to attain a "whole Bible theology."
You simply state your definition of volitional free will as fact (begging the question, by the way). In doing so, you seem to want to arrange a false dichotomy wherein man's "free will" is at odds with God's sovereignty.
In every example, from the tame to the extreme, the creature's decisions are never based solely on the creature's volition, as some outside influence is always brought to bear.
By the way...here's a question for you: Do you pray that persons you know who are not believers, perhaps a friend, co-worker, or family member come to Christ?
I'm deeply moved. You demonstrate something other than loving your brothers and sisters when you take your false definition of what we believe and keep on trying to impose that false definition on us. This is a textbook definition of creating a strawman--you misrepresent our position by creating a false caricature and then you "fight" against the caricature.
I am by no means ignorant of critical thinking skills. I use my skills to interpret scripture and to see how scripture interprets itself. I do not use my skills to apply non-biblical definitions of things, like free will, over the text and then make the text subservient to my a priori ideas.
You accuse us of preaching a false gospel? Really?! You call the Calvinist gospel "a dark message of no hope." If this is true, which it isn't, then I would be saying your non-Calvinist, free-will gospel is a dark message of hope in one's self, which I am not.
As for the gospel...I suppose you preach "Salvation through grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone." This is exactly what the Calvinists preach.
The fact of the matter is that we do not explain the doctrine of election to unbelievers because it is not important to do so. Do you explain electrical theory and the principles of physics to your young children so they can turn on a light, or do you just tell them to flip the switch? Of course, it is the latter.
Furthermore, we preach the gospel indiscriminately. We have no idea who the elect are--which is a good thing. We do not base preaching the gospel or the subsequent resulting salvation resulting from a response of repentance and faith on election or lack thereof. We say that salvation--the response of repentance and faith--is the evidence of God's work in your life, up to and including election and exercising repentance and faith.
The condition of faith from one's own heart? What you seem to be missing here is that we believe that faith must be exercised too.
But, you are aware of the the Bible says about the heart, right?[5] The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.You're saying that a deceitful-above-all-things and a only-evil-continually heart can produce the faith necessary for salvation? I think that's far stretch.
(Genesis 6:5 ESV)
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)
But, even if we grant that it is possible (which we do not), why can you not grant that we preach the necessity of a response of faith? If your father is a judge and issues a bench warrant because you owe $1,000 and you come before him in his court, does it really matter if you bring your own $1,000 to pay the debt or if he gives you the $1,000 to pay the debt. At the end of the day the debt is paid and the "requirement" is met.
Furthermore, if salvation is by God's grace alone, and therefore is something we do not deserve, why would it be a problem for God to supply the faith as well?
If grace is indeed "unmerited favor" the gift of faith is no problem. However, as you seem to want to argue, if God's salvation is the result of a proper response of one's own inherent faith, then grace becomes "merited favor" and is no longer "grace."
You are simply wrong. The Calvinist idea is that a response of faith comes freely from our own heart due to the influence of God, working through the Holy Spirit. That's it.
In our "economy" is the response of faith a result of the working of the Holy Spirit in the elect? Yes. But, as we are fond of saying, God makes the constitutionally unwilling willing.
Again, I would hope you would discuss with us based on what we say we believe, not your own caricature of us. As brothers and sisters in Christ, we, at the very least, deserve that measure of respect from you. That is, of course, unless you do not consider us brothers and sisters...but that is a different issue entirely.
The Archangel
Being Chosen Requires a Response (Of Faith) from One’s Own Heart! Like it or Not!
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Sep 4, 2012.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
You are using the KJV here, right? Of course you're aware that "whosoever" is a wrong translation, right? The word (πιστεύων) is a participle. The phrase itself (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων) is translated as "all the ones believing."
The word the KJV uses, whosoever, isn't there in the text. I suspect that you, along with countless others, use the word "whosoever" as a proof-text of sorts to support many things, including the idea that there is no such thing as election.
I'm interested to hear your response.
The Archangel -
I'd ask that language be carefully used here - to call a doctrine "false" or "dark" or "hateful" is not helping discussion . . and only makes the person thus ranting seem less Christ-like.
And misrepresenting? Why not simply QUOTE the other person rather than spewing "What ______ REALLY MEANS is xyz" Use THEIR words.
Or hey, I could just shut this down. My free will. ;) -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
I guess the teaching worked! :)
The Archangel -
And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (By calling/choosing him even when he was en-route for the following.) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12.13
Would you agree with me that when Jesus calls one and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to one, that one is moved/translated from a state of unbelief unto a state of belief, in other words he becomes a believer?
A person of faith. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
That the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration is a given. However, that work having been begun, does not mean someone has become a believer at that instant. Now, the work having been begun does mean, at some point, the person will become a believer. I think it an important distinction to say the beginning of the Holy Spirit's work does not necessarily mean someone has been converted. After all, we tend to see conversion as evidence of the Holy Spirit's work having been going on, for a while or not, and we really have no idea when that work began.
The Archangel -
I understand that my understanding of faith is different from anything you or I have ever read and I have not a clue where my understanding has come from, however I am sure all of you will have an answer for me.
I do ask for all to examine it against all scripture and let the chips fall where they may.
On both sides of the fence of the issue from those who post without a doubt both believe for salvation there has to some kind of response from the recipient.
But does it?
Look at the Old and New Covenant in Hebrews 8.
The old required a response from the people with which it was made and they failed in their response.
Under the New there is shown that God does it all. It is even stated that the people do not have to teach their neighbor because God is doing it all.
Does my understanding of the faith not do the very same thing? -
The same concept is found in this statement.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
One was not born because he responded to something and neither will he be born again or from above because he responded to something.
It will be an act of God. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Well we are not told how many days he was with the disciples but we are told in another place that what he knew concerning the Christ he did not learn from men.
He definitely went from one to the other fast. -
Post 7
And if you really are interested read my post in General Discussions under thread started by 12strings , "In Jesus Blood and Righteousness."
And as I said I have never seen this understanding anywhere. It is just my understanding and so far appears to jell with all scripture. Granted it can be picked at but upon study appears to hold up.
As I have said before first 39 years Presbyterian last 39 Southern Baptist.
High School Ed. Would not say well educated nor really well read.
You guys know a lot more than I. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Please feel free to elaborate further.
The Archangel -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Benjamin
Hello Benjamin my friend:wavey: Good to hear from you ,glad to see you are enjoying so many good responses to your new thread!
I would like to help now ...also:love2:
Election is God's love before time for a multitude of sinners who were seen as dead in Adam. God did not have save any, He could have hosen only one.And yet according to His perfect plan has elected the exact number of sinners to save he refers to as ...THE ELECT. Sorry to have to use that word...but i find it in the bible a whole lot. I am so nervous and shy to type the word,lol:
look up.....dia pistaious...and dia pistin
Faith is an instumentality that is part of the salvation we are given,as is repentance.
many times the truths expressed by the 5 points stand out well against the mushy , milk toast begging and whimpering that goes on , rather than the full disclosure of scripture...Any time my friend.....just ask and I will gladly speak to anyone about such truths. If God revealed them , we should not go about to conceal them
If I meet one...i will relay your ideas to him
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This is not the testimony of scripture;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly
maybe you should get your understanding from the scriptures that speak about it,,instead of just making these wild claims!
The only philosophical rambling going on is you, van,skan, winman,sometimes HOS,and WD....trying to laminate all your philosophical terms,and dispute words, debate fallacies, non sequitar this, begging the question that,.....all when you cannot answer scripturally:laugh:
This is an example of the message of grace through faith that I (A non-determinist) proclaim, the true Gospel promise to all God’s creatures:
(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.Click to expand...
Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.Click to expand...
If he could do it on his own, we would not speak of him as the man with the withered hand.lol.
The deterministic view must force fit change the “you/your” faith which is spoken of throughout the Bible into Him/His grace while excluding what is clearly mandated to be from your/their faith from your/their own heart.Click to expand...
God however gives a new heart to His elect, so they can obey...the old heart is made of stone and unable to respond.
stay tuned for part two.... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Benjamin
If the Determinist doesn’t “like” the idea that they or you have to respond from your/their own heart in faith I would suggest they take it to the Lord in prayer!!!
The Determinist focus is on grace alone and that is simply not Biblical.
I am truly concerned about a preference to leave the condition of one’s own free response of faith out of the salvific message all-together, whether it is for yourself or others.
It is as if those of the Determinist persuasion hate the fact that they would have to confess in faith from their own heart of their own free willClick to expand...
and rather love to profess the message of darknessClick to expand...
Not sure what image of darkness troubles you Benjamin...it does sound like archangel said...morbid!
“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1Jn 1:5)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9)Click to expand...
I ask honestly: Did the determinist have no choice? Did faith have to be determined upon them??? If so, I find this sad ,sad, sad; where is the love of the truth in that nonsensical determinist’ view which is clearly contrary to Romans 10:9 and 10 and the whole purpose of God in creating the world in love and revealing this Light to all in it what He did for us?Click to expand...
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:17-20)
There is true judgment in this matter:Click to expand...
yes..agreed...all men are fully responsible to God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)Click to expand...
You must believe with your own heart to be justifiedClick to expand...
But being that men have hearts of stone, God gives a new heart to the elect!
Then they can trust and obey, for there is no other way...to be happy in Jesus
(Rom 10:10) For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.Click to expand...
Let’s be honest here Determinist!Click to expand...
Whether you like it or not it is God's Doctrine of Grace 'through Faith" and that is a condition that should not be taken lightly or left out of the Gospel!Click to expand...the biblical salvation places sinners in a a good condition , from the bad condition they were in.Click to expand...
Don’t take out the condition of faith from your doctrine, tClick to expand...
You don’t know that you were specially pre-selected,Click to expand... -
The Archangel said: ↑So are you asking: Does God believe for us?
The ArchangelClick to expand...
I say we become, "ones believing," when called by Jesus and we are given the Holy Spirit. Why are we given the Holy Spirit? Paul asks, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal. 3:22-25 says, the faith they heard of, by which they received the Spirit had a moment in time when, the faith had not been revealed, the faith had not come, and the faith did come.
That moment in time was when Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross.
The death, the shed blood, of Jesus was the faith.
The faith, which brought justification, by which the righteousness of God could be imputed, the faith which resulted in grace being given by which we can receive salvation.
You would have to study just a little the post's I showed to get the whole picture. Then you could tell me I'm nuts or agree or partly agree or whatever.
As I stated I just post my understanding of which I have never seen anywhere else.
I am just trying to be honest about where I am coming from.
Thanks for your replies. -
I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"??? Being chosen is a passive activity on the part of the one chosen. The word itself does not necessitate an active "acceptance". Being chosen by God is an activity he performs... not you.
Even if we were to misuse the concept of "election" to the modern day political process, choosing Romney for the Repub ticket and his acceptance are 2 separate issues. His choice for the bid is not dependent on his acceptance. The chosen part was already decided when he accepted. -
Greektim said: ↑I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"??? Being chosen is a passive activity on the part of the one chosen. The word itself does not necessitate an active "acceptance". Being chosen by God is an activity he performs... not you.
Even if we were to misuse the concept of "election" to the modern day political process, choosing Romney for the Repub ticket and his acceptance are 2 separate issues. His choice for the bid is not dependent on his acceptance. The chosen part was already decided when he accepted.Click to expand... -
The Archangel said: ↑...I am by no means ignorant of critical thinking skills. I use my skills to interpret scripture and to see how scripture interprets itself. I do not use my skills to apply non-biblical definitions of things, like free will, over the text and then make the text subservient to my a priori ideas.
…The fact of the matter is that we do not explain the doctrine of election to unbelievers because it is not important to do so.Click to expand...
You are simply wrong. The Calvinist idea is that a response of faith comes freely from our own heart due to the influence of God, working through the Holy Spirit. That's it.Click to expand...
The condition of faith from one's own heart? What you seem to be missing here is that we believe that faith must be exercised too.
But, you are aware of the the Bible says about the heart, right?
[5] The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Genesis 6:5 ESV)
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)
You're saying that a deceitful-above-all-things and a only-evil-continually heart can produce the faith necessary for salvation? I think that's far stretch.Click to expand...
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:20)
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)
Seems to me Calvinism is what is making the stretch and goes goes to the point of breaking.
You accuse us of preaching a false gospel? Really?! You call the Calvinist gospel "a dark message of no hope." If this is true, which it isn't, then I would be saying your non-Calvinist, free-will gospel is a dark message of hope in one's self, which I am not.
As for the gospel...I suppose you preach "Salvation through grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone." This is exactly what the Calvinists preach.Click to expand...
Originally posted by Iconoclast:
6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......Click to expand...
Will you make the same claim as Iconoclast? If not, why not if that is what you believe? Do you not see the difference between Good News and Bad News? Here is what the Bible says concerning a message of light and one of darkness, you and/or the reader figure the truth out about what your Doctrine of Calvinism/Determinism adds up to for yourself (As I'm sure my frank opinion of the Calvinist doctrine wouldn't be well recieved on this board):
“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1Jn 1:5)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9) -
Greektim said: ↑I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"???Click to expand...
You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!
Does anyone not see the deterministic factor in that title? My title pits creaturely volition against the doctrines of Determinism. Does anyone note that He left the "or Not!" off the "You are Chosen!" That title is typical of the masking used by Calvinist that hides the transparency that their doctrine, gospel message, amounts to and gives yet another example which is equal to saying the Good News is only for for the specially preselected few...Like it or Not!...Na Na Doo Doo if you're one of the unlucky ones that wasn't pre-chosen! :rolleyes: This message isn't for you! :tear:
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