I strongly believe that the grace of God [the drawing of God if you will] is present in His creation, conviction of the Holy Spirit [conscience] the word of God spoken etc. God has given all men the ability to think and make real choices. God has said He reaches out all day long to stubborn people. And I was very stubborn. I read a lot asked a lot of questions and got to the point that the truth could not be denied. Was that a work on my part? Well for most calvinists they would say yes. But I look at those that say it just happened and say then you have not thought it through.
One thing I have found over the years is that God does not draw all people to Himself in the same way. For some it is emotion for others it is intellect. It just happened to be for me it was through study.
I have read some of Sproul and he was a smart man but some of his comments like "barely saved" made him look foolish and arrogant.
Being Ignorant of God's Righteousness
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Nov 29, 2022.
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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I don't have a high church background and so have no special allegiance to a certain creed. Sometimes Calvinists make things seem too deterministic and mechanical. But, if you lean towards free will you need to understand that no one will come to Christ without the Holy Spirit. And if you describe the gospel as God laying out the new terms and you are simply responsible to come or not come whenever you make the decision to do so then you are making a far worse mistake in explaining what happens when someone gets saved than any Calvinist. You almost have to read Calvinist sermons to get this because it is very hard to express properly in a quick argument on the internet. -
Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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We also believe all are sinners and all are guilty. Given these things that we cannot reconcile if we're honest; what Calvinism does is bow to God and give him maximum honor. So you have a system where some of us were chosen not randomly by chance but not by anything good in us either. Our only reaction should be gratitude - anything else is a horrible sin. We still are at a loss to explain why some were saved and others weren't but it has to be either up to God's sovereignty, or to some cause in man. I sometimes feel we might be sinning even by sitting around and discussing God's thought processes.
But on the other hand, I know a lot of folks who aren't Calvinist but they confine all this to the fact they they at one point understood the gospel message they heard and they responded. They leave it at that and don't try to put the Almighty under a microscope and figure out his motives and risk getting it wrong and blaspheming. They instead focus on living the Pilgrim life and getting others to come along with them if possible. To me, they are far better Christians, and are superior to us amateur theologians. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
While I would fit into the "at one point understood the gospel message they heard and they responded" group I do not consider myself as a better Christian but rather just a saved sinner. -
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God saves according to what He has said, not according to how I want Him to.
The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God...in other words, it was written by Him.
As for my theology, I get that just by reading it and believing what it alone says. -
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. " ( Hebrews 11:1-10 ).
The faith that is the substance of things hoped, for, the evidence of things not seen...
That with it, many did things that pleased God?
But without it God is not pleased?
How does one get that faith?
How does one please God outside of the only thing that He does regard, the perfect efforts of His Son?
It's a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), Silverhair...just as Hebrews 11:4 tells us;
A gift, authored ( initiated ) and finished ( perfected ) by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It's not something that we as believers in Jesus Christ "will up" in order to get God to save us and do things through us and for us.
That said, I wish you well, and my hope is that through your continuing studies in His precious word, you begin to see the many things that He has shown me in the 44+ years since He called me into the fellowship of His saints in 1978...
One of which is that my salvation was through His grace alone ( of which His gift of faith is part of ), not of works lest I should boast.
May His unmerited blessings and gifts be deeply realized and cherished by all who read this. -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
You say you have learned over 44+ years what you hold to now. But I would submit that what you hold to is not from the bible but rather what some men have told you that the bible says. I encourage you to continue to study but stick to the bible not waht other people tell you should believe. -
Q72 What is Justifying Faith?
Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability of himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness....
WCF Catechism
The "gift" of faith does not mean a magic wand was used. The reformers knew that humans have wills and minds. Notice that the Holy Spirit and the Word are used above, just like you said. But because you could not have arrived at the place of "being convinced of his sin and misery" by yourself they called it a gift. I think they were right. Notice also that the sinner is the one who "assenteth, reveiveth, an resteth on the truth of the gospel. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
When you say "But because you could not have arrived at the place of "being convinced of his sin and misery" by yourself they called it a gift." you betray the calvinist view of determinism. What you deny is exactly what God in His word requires man to do. Learn through His creation, be convicted , hear the gospel and believe or reject what you know. These are thinks man does they are not done to him or for him. We are saved by the grace of God because we believe not so that we will believe. -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
Dave while you state that man cannot repent we find the word of God stating the exact opposite. In [Acts of the Apostles 17:30] we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God: and that believing ye might have life through His name." [John 20:31] It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows. We see this again written by Paul in [Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31] and again in [Ephesians 1:13]. Man has to respond to the gospel message.
The WCF is not the authority, the bible is. We should start with the bible and trust what it says, since the WCF does not agree with the bible then the WCF is to be discarded -
And the WCF is not scripture so reject it if you like. My only intention there was to show that the Calvinist viewpoint on how faith is wrought in a believer is explained by that section as more than just an instant zap of a magic wand. And if I quote the WCF, while it is not as authoritative as scripture it is authoritative as representing mainstream Calvinism. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
I consider myself fortunate that I had never heard of this Calvinism vs Arminianism battle until about 10 yrs ago. I came from a baptist background that just trusted the bible as written. So for me it has always been bible first, last and always. -
Acts of the Apostles 4:11-12 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. -
Ken. This is an example of why people get so fired up on here. If my quote is correct (and it might not have been Spurgeon) he was not trying to say that Arminianism saved him. What he meant was that in his consciousness of what happened when he came to Christ was that it seemed to him that he came to Christ. Or he decided to believe. Then, looking back and learning more about salvation and scripture, he started realizing that something more had happened than just his decision. When he started asking why he believed he concluded that an external action of the Holy Spirit was responsible.
That's why it is correct to sing the song "I have decided to follow Jesus". You really did. But you can still give all credit to the work of God in causing this.
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