John, you have helped consierably. My goal is three fold. First to get us to consider the diff between believe and believe in. Second is to learn a bit more about the original languages. Third and primary is to learn how to learn. By seeing how others approach a question I can add other tools to my arsenal. I have a good understanding of the meaning of the verses but not a good understanding of how to get there. It is a problem that I have. I had a calculus prof who marked my stuff wrong because I skipped major steps. I couldn't work the problem' just give the answer. My kids hated when I tried to help with homework
Believe?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by thegospelgeek, Aug 3, 2010.
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I commend you on your third purpose. I know I've not arrived (not even close). I enjoy hearing others thoughts on the matters - especially on those who are more learned and those who have wrestled with the passage for more years than I've even been alive. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Other passages with pisteuw eiV given to study in a footnote include: Matt. 18:6, Mark 9:42, John 1:12, 2:11 & 23, 3:16, 4:39, 8:30, 9:35, 11:25, 12:44, Acts 10:43, 1 John 5:10 & 13.
So, according to Wallace, pisteuw being a verb of motion, it has an extra emphasis when followed by a preposition. This means that believing in Jesus is more than just believing a fact, which would be pisteuw with a simple direct object. 1 John 4:1 is an example of pisteuw with the direct object. -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
James does say what the object of believe is, but he does not do so grammatically; he does it contextually.
[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! (James 2:19 ESV)James is writing to Jewish believers in Christ (v. 1 "To the 12 tribes in the dispersion). The Jews believe that "God is one"
[4] “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deuteronomy 6:4 ESV)This understanding of God being "one" was fundamental to the Jewish faith. But, in the context of James 2, James is saying that one's faith must demonstrate itself in action (fruit), not idle talk.
James is saying that the Demons also believe God is one. So, as I mentioned before, James is telling his audience "If you "believe" God is one, Congratulations! Even the Demons do that and by claiming to believe God is one you show that you have the same faith a demon has. Why don't you demonstrate your faith through your life...not through your lips."
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Plus, if the point here is that the demons believe yet show nothing in their faith, then why do they shudder? Instead of the example that the demons belief is nothing because their faith is not grounded in the gospel but simply monotheism, could James be doing the opposite? Could he possibly be saying that even the demons believe the essential elements of God's Word and prove their faith that they fear God's wrath? Could he be arguing to the point that even the demons are proving their faith - you ought to be as well.
And then further, syntactically it would be bad grammar to make "God is one" into a prepositional phrase of some kind. Was the OP not about making a major distinction in the variation of meanings for pisteuw??? I don't think the absence of a preposition in James reinforces that since it wouldn't work there anyways. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
So, in effect, the Pharisees were teaching that to be "saved" one only had to affirm certain facts and keep the Law perfectly. But, in this, they grossly missed the intent of the Law--which is why you see most of Jesus' preaching in the Gospels as being against the Pharisees.
So, it is not out of the realm of possibility that the Pharisees thought that as long as one believed the right thing, what they did--their actions--did not matter. In fact, we know the Pharisees did precisely this. What James is preaching against is what we might call "anti-lordship salvation." James preached, rather strenuously, that true faith must be demonstrated in the life of the Believer.
Remember, there is no plan of salvation for demons. Salvation is never offered to them under any circumstances. To argue that demons have faith is to argue they could be saved. We know from scripture they cannot be and will not be saved, there is no such grace from God for them.
So, no, James is not arguing what you suggest. James is arguing that simple agreement on facts is not sufficient to save. He is saying that faith must be demonstrated.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
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Let me add that unless I am misunderstanding something, it is impossible for deamon's to have faith. Yes, they believe but Hebrews defines faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Haven't the demons seen God? Therefore they do not have faith in God but rather have knowledge of him. Does that make sense? -
The devils cannot believe on Jesus because he did not die for them. They cannot rely or depend upon his sacrifice to save them, because he did not die for them. They can believe he exists, they can believe he is the true God, but they cannot rely upon Him to save them.
And this is how it is with men as well. You can believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but that does not mean you have placed your trust in him and depend upon him to save you. You might believe in Jesus but trust in your works to save you.
To believe in Jesus is to take one more step that just believeing he is the Son of God who died for you, you must cease from all self effort to save yourself and cast yourself completely upon Jesus and rely and depend upon Him only to save you.
It is like a parachute. You may believe a parachute is safe and will get you to the ground safely. Is that actually depending on the parachute? No. To truly trust the parachute you must jump out of the plane and depend upon it only to get you to the ground safely.
The devils cannot do this. There is no sacrifice provided for them, no parachute. -
POST 1000 Wooo Hooo -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The very Greek word for angel means "messenger," and is even used that way of humans. But the very fact that they are named "messenger" means that their reason for existence is totally different from that of humans. Theirs is but to obey and worship, not believe or think or meditate or persuade. They don't even rejoice when people get saved, as some people mis-interpret Luke 15:10, where the angels don't rejoice, but the rejoicing takes place in their presence. -
I think that I agree with everything up until the highlighted portion. That angels think or meditate is the very thing you referenced in 1 Peter 1:12.
I also think of Eph. 1:20,21 and especially, Eph. 3:10 as references to angels. That God is showing/demonstrating His wisdom (other places called 'foolishness') via the gospel and His Church - unto these very creatures who are intently desiring to look into how this whole thing, a) works; and b) works out.
It is mind boggling to both us (or at least me!), and them, that the foolishness of preaching, and the efficacy of God's love/Christ's blood, could accomplish what God intends it to accomplish - in the hearts of fallen, individually free-willed men.
I also, don't know what rigor you attach scripturally to "they don't even rejoice." There may not be a lot of evidence in the affirmative - but what is your evidence to the contrary?
Also, didn't the devil "persuade" Eve, in the garden?
I'm just asking and curious, because you seem pretty confident about these things. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I stated it poorly. I should have said "meditate on spiritual things." I think they simply accept things as they are. They have no need to grow in grace, learn more about God, consider the sacrifice of Christ, etc. They can think and are curious about spiritual things, of course, but 1 Peter 1:12 doesn't prove to me that they think deeply or meditate about spiritual things. They are "ministering spirits," that's all.
And I certainly agree that it is amazing what God does through His precious Son! :jesus:
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