Talk about making it up, you said misquoted and now say "made it up." Try to stick to Truth.
Born Dead
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Aug 4, 2022.
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Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The "Born Dead" concept teaches we are conceived in a separated from God state. United with God we are “alive” and separated from God we are “dead.” When Adam sinned and was corrupted, he was separated from God. Thus all in Adam are separated from God and therefore dead at conception. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ.
Now lets look at some arguments against the doctrine that as a consequence of Adam’s sin, mankind is conceived in a spiritually dead, separated from God state, and is born corrupted with the “old man” nature, referring to Adam’s nature after his eyes were opened.
Romans 7:9 "For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
If we are born dead in sins, how could Paul say he was ever alive once? And how could he die if he was born dead?
This verse is certainly difficult with differing views presented in commentaries. I believe Paul was saying he thought he was alive, not knowing that he was condemned, but when he became aware of the requirement of perfection, he “died” in that he became aware he was dead because unforgiven sin requires separation per Isaiah 59:2. This view is supported contextually with Romans 7:13. The law did not become death, but sin was shown to be death through the Law. Sin becoming utterly sinful speaks to awareness because sin is always utterly sinful from God’s perspective.
In summary, Romans 7:9 does not teach we were alive at conception, but rather we did not know we were dead. This view is consistent with being conceived in iniquity, and therefore separated from our holy God.
In the parable of the prodigal son, the illustration starts with the son being together with the Father, hence alive, then he chooses to sin and leaves the Father, becoming separated and hence dead, and then he returns to the Father on his own power, becoming alive again. Now can we say that everyone starts out alive or does everyone start out condemned already according to John 3:18? We start out condemned, and separated because if we were together with Christ we would be alive and not condemned.
I agree we can establish doctrine supported by parables but we must be careful not to take the illustration past its purpose. In this parable, the son starts out alive, but since this facet of the story does not mesh with all the verses that say because of Adam, we start out “in Adam” and not “in Christ,” that part of the stories’ detail does not override all the verses presenting that we are conceived in iniquity. For example Romans 5:19 says we were "made sinners."
The other two illustrations of Luke 15, the lost sheep and the lost coin, tell the story of something belonging to the owner. Who is our owner? God. But because of the consequence of the Fall of Adam, mankind is conceived in a separated state, hence lost. When someone is united with Christ, they are recovered, found, redeemed, transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God. Next note that the 99 sheep are not really united with the Father, for they are in need of repentance. So the lost sheep actually represents a lost person who repents, which is consistent with being condemned already. The 10 coin parable makes the same point, the “owner” rejoices over the recovery of the one who repents.
In summary, both Romans 7 and Luke 15 are consistent with the Fall.
Next lets consider 1 Peter 2:25: The people in view, were continually straying which refers to the fact they were continually sinning. A lost separated person can continue to sin and store up wrath for himself or herself. The word returned might better be translated turn back, which describes a person who is going the wrong way, i.e. sinning, and then turning back toward the One who leads them in paths of righteousness. So again, no actual support for denial of the consequence of the Fall.
Everyone is created by God, and thus everyone is a “child of God” in the sense that God is our creator. But to say these children of God cannot be condemned and be children of wrath makes no sense. Next, God chose the nation of Israel to be His people, so in another sense, the believing children of the promise were “children of God.” And now, under the New Covenant, all those chosen by God and spiritually placed in Christ are born anew, becoming “children of God” in the third sense. So when we see the phrase, children of God, or sons of God, we must look to the context to see which of the three ways the phrase is being used.
As far as 1 Corinthians 15:22, the death referred to with “in Adam all die” simply refers to the fact everyone in sinful Adam is necessarily separated from our holy God. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
Joh 5:23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Joh 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Actually the context shows that your understanding of the verse is wrong. It is a universal call and those that hear and respond will be saved those that reject will be condemned. Man gets to make the choice, that is unless you want to accuse God of being the one that makes the men do evil. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
Rom 10:9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit;
Rom 10:13 For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
The bible says we have to believe before one is saved not after as your Calvinist theology has it. -
Do you just openly ignore that God made us alive, even while we were still dead?
When you are dead, tell me how you will hear God? -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Silverhair, your "God helps those who help themselves" theology is unbiblical. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
What is really sad is that Martin says he is a minister and he does not even understand the bible and actually denies scripture as he agreed with your comment.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, they call on the Lord and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Calvinist philosophical view.
Calvinist view, saved and then given faith. Biblical view, have faith so they can be saved. John 5:24-25
I am not sure how much clearer the Holy Spirit could have made it or perhaps you and Martin think you know better than God how people can come to faith.
I will continue to trust the bible while you and Martin continue to trust your Calvinism. Remind me again, what was it Paul said about those that preach another gospel. -
Martin Marprelate Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
BTW, you give me too much glory; I am not a church minister, I am an elder and I share in the preaching ministry in the church as well as preaching in other small churches in the area from time to time. -
Silverhair, you certainly trust your "God helps those who help themselves" theology. Neither Martin nor I subscribe to that theology. -
I love how Jesus gives us the interpretation to Romans 10, which some people here seem incapable of grasping. I suppose it's because they love themselves more than anything else.
*Romans 10:12-14*
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
*John 10:25-30*
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” -
The common phenomenon of belief in God's Christ prior to be being born from God.
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
When taken in the overall context of Paul's writing we see that while the natural man tends to reject the things of the Spirit of God it does not mean that he can not accept them and in fact God expects man to do so and will be held responsible for not doing so. When you consider that the Holy Spirit convicts man of their sin you have to ask why bother if man can not do anything except wait for God to make him believe.
One cannot simply come to Christ by force of will, nor can we do enough good deeds to earn our way. The only way is to humble ourselves before God and turn to Jesus in faith. We have to admit that we are sinners, this is the work of the Holy Spirit John 16:8. We will be saved on the basis of our faith, Ephesians 2:8 therefore our faith precedes our salvation. This is in contradistinction to Calvinism that says we have to be saved before we are given faith.
Then even as an elder you will be held to a higher standard. When you deny clear scripture and preach such you will be judged for and by your words -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
Scripture is the authority not your Calvinism. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
It seems you will go to just about any length to try and support your philosophy. -
I provided Jesus direct words which show us what Paul means in Romans 10. Now, you can either accept it or reject it. That's on you, Silverhair. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
Austin your philosophy is blinding you to the truths of scripture. Scriptural Authority should be your guide not calvinism. Read the text do not read into the text.
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