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Featured Cage Staged Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Jun 12, 2019.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ironically much of the fault found is by the Calvinist. It is important that, as a people, we have not only the capability but also the willingness for self-examination and an openness to consider what others may see in us.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    A choice by God to elect a multitude of sinners In Christ, and pass by the rest is just that.
    As was posted earlier it was a positive choice to elect a multitude of undeserving sinners.
    God has elected to save all He could have wisely saved according to His purpose.
    I do not doubt God's wisdom and knowledge to know the God of the earth will do right just like at Sodom and Gommorah.
    If there were 50, or 40, or 30,down to ten
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Oh, really? So this is a Calvinist that is answering against God?:

    18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

    I think not.
     
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    There a difference between "not saving" and "actively damning". God did not IRRESISTIBLY DRAW men to sin the way he IRRESISTIBLY DRAWS men to Christ. I can find no Scripture that teaches [God draws men to sin, therefore the damnation that results from sin is the sovereign work of God.] If scripture taught it, then I would accept it, but scripture does not teach that.

    [1] The fire was not the result of an outside cause like faulty electric. Both babies chose to immolate themselves: Romans 3:10-18

    [2] I agree that the act of Electing some condemns the rest to their fate, but it is also important to remember that THEY earned their fate, God did not inflict damnation on them. Sinners really are guilty of willful rebellion against their Creator and the wages of their sin is eternal separation from God.
     
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes. Zactly.:

    18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

    ...and all this bloviation by the non-Cals amounts to is AGAINST God:

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. It is people like the late R.C. Sproul, J.I. Packer,. John Piper, James White, D.A. Carson and Spurgeon who have identified the issue discussed in the OP as well.

    As one who holds to the Calvinism as described on the BB I think it is important to identify and address these trends (they are not new -the book White mentioned is 40 years old).

    We are responsible for addressing these issues rather than pretending they do not exist (whether in Calvinism or free-will theologies).

    This is not fault in terms of condemnation but discipleship. We may not be able to prevent "cage staged" syndrome but we can try and bring folks out of it and make sure it is a stage.
     
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  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Starting to catch onto the hidden agenda that’s emerging! :Sneaky
     
  8. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    This is where we seem to disagree. You say God does not stop men from coming to Him. Total Depravity and limited atonement mean that man has no mechanism, no hope, no ability whatsoever to come to God. Did God stop the non-elect from coming to Him? He created the world. He created man. He created the system of redemption. If God placed man in a position He created where man has absolutely no hope of rescue, did God elect that man to damnation?
     
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  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    From the footing of LOGIC, I must agree with you. The reprobate are born with no chance of redemption and it seems impossible to imagine that God has no responsibility for that. However, Scripture is never willing to make that case. There are no scriptures that I can locate which talk about sin except as the fault of the sinner. For whatever reason, the Bible only discusses the SOVEREIGN ELECTION to life, and refuses to draw the obvious conclusion. I cannot believe that is either an accident or cowardice on the part of God and the inspired writers. So I must reluctantly accept the logical paradox as Truth and just try to "deal with it".
     
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God does not stop man from coming , sin does.
    Men love sin as a consequence of the fall.
    Adam did the sin that enslaves us, not God.
    Ungodly sinners can repent and turn to God...if they want to. No one stops them. Sin is more attractive and draws them like a magnet.
    None of us would have come unless God effectually drew us.
     
    #90 Iconoclast, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    A biblical view of the results of the fall settles this. Rom:8:7...1 cor2
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Often what separates philosophy from theology is not its conclusions but the path taken. When we rely on Scripture and keep our eyes on Christ we do theology. But sometimes this does not satisfy our inquiries.
     
  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    If God does not draw the sinner, he can not come?
    Most Calvinists would say Adam bringing sin into the world was his fulfilling the sovereign will of God.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I disagree, Adam did not do that. Adam acted on his after expressly being not to do that!
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree this sometimes occurs. I think it may be when Christians view other Christians with an "us versus them" mentality. It works with sports teams, but not so much within Christian circles.

    Perhaps this is one of the most damaging part of the "cage stage" issue (regardless of theological position).
     
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How do you view Romans 9 and the preparation of the vessels of wrath for destruction?
     
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  17. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    As an Arminian, I agree with you. Most Calvinists I have seen deal with the subject dont agree with you.
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Not really.
    If God had simply punished Adam and Eve for their sin immediately, a maximum of only two human beings would be suffering for eternity in Hell. There might be none but God and angels in Heaven, but all the reprobate born after Adam would not suffer ECT. That just is what it is. So God's choice effects the eternal destiny of billions of people ... even if they earn those wages. God is not an impotent bystander, wringing his hands that people will not listen to Him ... God is the "Potter" who created both types of pots.
     
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  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Romans 3:23....ALL SINNED AT ONE POINT IN TIME.
    If The Covenant of Redemption were not in place, no one would be saved, not one.
     
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And now we get into full-blown covenant theology...
     
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