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Featured Calvinism and John 3:16

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Jun 27, 2022.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    There is no good news for those who are dead in sin. They cannot redeem themselves. They either think they can redeem themselves or they believe they are good enough and don't need any redemption.
    If a person does not hear Jesus voice speaking into his deadness and making him alive....he will not believe. There is no good news for one whom God does not make alive with Christ.
    When God makes a person alive, the power of Jesus atonement washes that person white as snow and they know it. They fall down in full repentance. They are, for the first time, clean. There is no other way by which a man is saved. It's either all God, or it is nothing.
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ehpesians 2:1, "And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins; . . ."
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Esau and Judas INCLUDED! After all, Jesus died for them both!
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Malachi 1:3
     
  7. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    No, it isn't. πᾶς is "all", not whosoever. See here:

    πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν (gen m, n παντός)
    a all: 59.23
    b any: 59.24
    c total: 78.44
    d whole: 63.2
    e every kind of: 58.28


    Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 190.​

    Nowhere does it mean "whosoever." As an adjective, it requires something to modify, unless it is a substantive, which πᾶς is not a substantive in John 3:16. It could be translated "whomever" or "whoever," but it can't be translated or mean "whosoever." In this case it is modifying the participle πιστεύων, it is not standing alone. Translating πᾶς here as "whosoever" is far too ambiguous for the typical usage. We are left to say "all what?" the answer is the participle πιστεύων, which is "the believing ones." So by lexical standards and grammatical standards, it does not mean "Whosoever."

    Now, here's some deeper stuff: John 4:14 says: ὃς δʼ ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ, οὐ μὴ διψήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ τὸ ὕδωρ ὃ δώσω αὐτῷ γενήσεται ἐν αὐτῷ πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον. I'll translate if for you: [14] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” (ESV)

    Did you notice the "whoever," as in "whoever drinks." That is a relative pronoun--ὃς. The KJV translates this as "whosoever." Here the ambiguity of "whosever" is in view as this precedes a subjunctive and has the marker ἄν which means it is a conditional statement. So, it is ambiguous--whosoever drinks will never thirst again.

    But, if we back up to v. 13, we see this: ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ· Πᾶς ὁ πίνων ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος τούτου διψήσει πάλιν, which I will again translate for you: [13] Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,(ESV)

    Notice the Πᾶς ὁ πίνων construction, which is the same grammar as John 3:16. It is literally "all the ones drinking." There is no "whosoever is drinking," however, because "whosoever" cannot translate πᾶς, because "whosoever" is far too ambiguous for this grammatical construction. So, with John 3:16, the πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων does not and cannot mean "whosoever."

    No, the KJV doesn't translate "Whosever" from πᾶς for reasons argued above. The KJV takes the article ὁ from ὁ πιστεύων as a relative pronoun. It is from the relative pronoun(s) we get "who, which, what, the one who, that which." Since the relative pronoun ὅ and the definite article ὁ look very similar, it is easy to understand why this mistake could have been made. I'm not sure what the manuscripts looked like as far as rough breathing marks and accents are concerned. But, since πᾶς cannot be "whosoever," it must be that they took the article to be the relative pronoun and translated it as "whosoever." But... since πιστεύων is in the masculine singular the relative pronoun ὅς (which is the masculine singular pronoun) would be required rather than the neuter ὅ. So, John does not have "whosoever" in view here. If he did, his construction would use a relative pronoun (because it can be more ambiguous) as he did in John 4:13-14.

    We've had 400+ years of language research since the KJV was translated. So, in this case, I do know more simply because I live a long time after them.

    It's appears it is as I expected. You have a reverse interlinear and, perhaps, a parsing tool. If that's all you have, you don't know Greek.

    I can imagine your confusion comes from you having only an interlinear, a parsing tool, and a lexicon, instead of really knowing the language.

    The Archangel
     
    #167 The Archangel, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This thread will be closed no sooner than 615 am EDT / 315 am PDT
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I used Mounce because it was the first Greek Interlinear NT I could find online

    Here is a KJV Interlinear, which is also the same by Geroge Ricker Berry

    kjv.PNG

    Here is also a link to an online Intgerlinear from Biblehub

    John 3:16 Interlinear: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

    Another KJV Interlinear,

    int.PNG

    notice the number next to WHOSOEVER G3956, which is πᾶς

    I also told you that the KJV translates πᾶς about 90 times by "whosoever"!

    You think that you are right, and all the others are wrong!

    Check REAL Greek lexicons like Thayer, BDAG, etc
     
    #169 SavedByGrace, Jun 30, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    This thread is closed
     
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