I am not confusing the two at all. Some others on the board are. I should have never brought it up; it seems to be beyond their comprehension.
Natural light is that which is revealed in nature.
The testimony I set forth before you is well documented. It is the testimony of Hudson Taylor, who came to Christ through reading a gospel tract. He was unsaved. Now you and Rippon want to make an absolute statement based on an interpretation of 1Cor.2:14 that his testimony is a lie because he was unsaved (a natural man), and cannot understand the things of God. He was reading Scripture--a Scripture tract particularly about the blood of Christ. That is spiritual. According to you and other Calvinists he is still lost today and probably in hell because he never got saved in the first place. The natural man cannot receive spiritual things. He was reading a "spiritual thing" as a natural man. So he was never saved was he???
Calvinism takes Biblical Truth Too Far
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Oct 25, 2011.
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And it is VERY obvious that you don't understand it at all.
If you did understand it you would not think for a milisecond that the testimony you provided contradicts what Calvinists believe about regeneration in the least.
The very fact that you posted that as an argument against the Calvinist view of regeneration says to me that you have no business in this debate.
This is what I find time and time again. People who hate Calvinism the most understand it the least. But these types of people don't need to know anything about something in order to hate it. All they need is to know is that it is not what they are familiar with. That's enough for them.
The testimony does not have anything at all to do with the Calvinist view of regeneration. It does not refute it or even challenge it in the least.
If you knew what you were talking about- you would know that. But you do not know what you are talking about. That much is clear to everyone here. -
Anti-cal after anti-cal attacked it, in total oblivion to what it even teaches. They were in fact senselessly attacking their own thoughts, not the system.
Thus the thread was closed only after I proved my point that they fight against what they THINK it teaches, and were wrong. Not one admitted to this even after it was apparent to all this was the case, and even after DHK himself admitted my goal was accomplished, then closed the thread.
Here is the link: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=73419&page=15
And here are the last couple of posts:
Originally Posted by preacher4truth:
DHK responded:
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It is like moderating someone you are debating. Trashy. -
The deeper and more important issue here is this: since he does not know beans from apple butter about Calvinism, as he has here and numerous previous instances, why does he keep campaigning against it?
That is worth considering. Finding that out is more important than debating him on the periphery as we have been doing.
What pushes him on though he has no idea what he is talking about? -
Seekingthetruth, Robert Snow, DHK are among them.
Typically after a request to do so there is yet another baseless attack against teachings they are clueless about. Then come the all too familiar generalized attacks of "arrogance," "lauding ones intellect," "rejecting simple teachings," "the Bible doesn't have any verses that show Calvinism is correct" and the list goes on, with no substance to back it up of course.
Their reluctance to address the facts with substance and actual documentation stems from fear of facts, and a lack of really knowing what they are talking about, or even what they are fighting against in the first place. -
It doesn't matter whether he heard the gospel previous to that; he was still unsaved--"spiritually discerned."
I believe he can be saved through the Word of God, but you say he, being a natural man, cannot read the Word of God and understand it, for "he is spiritually discerned."
You say that God doesn't empower the word in and of itself, for this is a natural man and he is "spiritually discerned."
You are not being consistent in your application of Scripture.
BTW, this has been pointed out to the other Calvinists on this board but they only ridicule for they have no sound answer against their own fallacious argument. -
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DHK said: ↑"The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are spiritually discerned." In other words they cannot understand the Bible. This is what I hear over and over again on this board from Calvinists. So I have provided an example to demonstrate otherwise.Click to expand...
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DHK said: ↑Don't be so naive.
The OP was started by you. You started the thread. Your mission was accomplished. I took that to mean you wanted the thread closed; so I closed it. No need to make disdainful remarks.Click to expand...
Yep I started the OP. You're gifted in noting the glaringly obvious for once. Congrats! :thumbsup:
Yep, my mission was accomplished, you and others fought against what you thought a doctrine teaches, and did so vehemenently, but remain clueless to what it actually does teach to this day. I thought it comical to watch each of you attack not the doctrine, but your own subjective thoughts which had not a thing to do with irresistible grace.
You know it wasn't a request to close the thread, but instead, you saw my point proven and chose to close it all on your own desire to do so. The facts are there for all to see.
Oh, and by the way, there were absolutely no disdainful remarks in my response, that is something employed by yourself frequently when what you accuse is clearly not there.
Everything in my response was factual and shared facts by quotes. Yes, I know it must be painful to look back at my objective there in that thread and see the several attacking their own thoughts, not the teaching itself. That, and to acknowledge my mission was in fact accomplished. -
jbh28 said: ↑Really, so God had nothing to do with it? God didn't open his eyes to understand the Scripture at that very moment?Click to expand...
He is totally depraved. He is completely dead. It is impossible for him to respond to anything spiritual. -
DHK said: ↑"The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are spiritually discerned." In other words they cannot understand the Bible. This is what I hear over and over again on this board from Calvinists. So I have provided an example to demonstrate otherwise.
It doesn't matter whether he heard the gospel previous to that; he was still unsaved--"spiritually discerned."
I believe he can be saved through the Word of God, but you say he, being a natural man, cannot read the Word of God and understand it, for "he is spiritually discerned."
You say that God doesn't empower the word in and of itself, for this is a natural man and he is "spiritually discerned."
You are not being consistent in your application of Scripture.
BTW, this has been pointed out to the other Calvinists on this board but they only ridicule for they have no sound answer against their own fallacious argument.Click to expand...
1. Lost people do not have such a heart in them:
Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
2. God must give such a heart in them:
Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
3. The New Covenant is God giving such a heart in them:
Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. -
DHK said: ↑I believe He did, absolutely. But I am not the one trying to hold to such a literal interpretation of 1Cor.2:14 that says it is impossible for Taylor to be saved, as the Calvinist does. The natural man does not receive the things of God for he is spiritually discerned. He is lost. He is blinded to the truth of God. On His own it is impossible for him to understand any spiritual thing. That is the Calvinist position reiterated over and over again.
He is totally depraved. He is completely dead. It is impossible for him to respond to anything spiritual.Click to expand... -
jbh28 said: ↑Calvinist correctly say that "on His own it's impossible." I hope you have that same position. You yourself say that you believe that God opened his eyes so he could understand. Why do you think that the Calvinist would say that God leaves him alone and cannot be saved?Click to expand...
The literalness of your statement I don't agree with. "On his own it is impossible" for a natural man to understand spiritual things (to put the entire statement in its context).
Hudson Taylor, "on his own" understood spiritual things though he was spiritual discerned. You shoot yourself in the foot.
I have asked Luke in the past. Can an unsaved person pick up the Bible and, by reading it, be saved? His answer is absolutely no. He cannot understand spiritually things. He is spiritually dead to the things of God.
He is totally depraved, totally unable to respond to anything spiritual. That is his position.
Now that I have given a well documented incident in scripture the Calvinists here have all become Arminians and have changed their tune. They are backed into a corner and are trying to justify their previous statements concerning the depravity of man, and wild interpretation of 1Cor.2:14. -
DHK said: ↑The proof text pulled out of the air for that statement is 1Cor.2:14.
The literalness of your statement I don't agree with. "On his own it is impossible" for a natural man to understand spiritual things (to put the entire statement in its context).
Hudson Taylor, "on his own" understood spiritual things though he was spiritual discerned. You shoot yourself in the foot.Click to expand...
I have asked Luke in the past. Can an unsaved person pick up the Bible and, by reading it, be saved? His answer is absolutely no. He cannot understand spiritually things. He is spiritually dead to the things of God.
He is totally depraved, totally unable to respond to anything spiritual. That is his position.Click to expand... -
jbh28 said: ↑What's your proof that God had nothing to do with Taylor's understanding of the Scripture? You seem to be begging the question here. the Scripture, not just Calvinist, teach that the natural man cannot understand.
Without God, that would be true. However, I would say yes, but that's understanding that the Lord would be working in him through the gospel. It's not that the man is just reading words without God in the picture.Click to expand...
This is abundantly clear in Scripture.
But that God uses his word to regenerate the lost is also clear in Scripture.
So when Taylor picked up this tract, either in that moment God used the Scripture to awaken his dead spirit so that he could receive the Truth- or God had awakened his spirit prior to that. This resulted in his regeneration which inevitably led to his calling upon the Lord and being saved.
EVERYBODY who knows beans from apple butter about Calvinism understands that that is what MOST Calvinists believe.
The fact the DHK does not know this is proof he has no business in this debate. He does not understand in the slightest that which he is on a tear against. -
Luke2427 said: ↑The question is can an UNREGENERATE man pick up a Bible and read it and be saved while unregenerate. The answer is a resounding- absolutely not.
This is abundantly clear in Scripture.Click to expand...
But that God uses his word to regenerate the lost is also clear in Scripture.Click to expand...
So when Taylor picked up this tract, either in that moment God used the Scripture to awaken his dead spirit so that he could receive the Truth- or God had awakened his spirit prior to that. This resulted in his regeneration which inevitably led to his calling upon the Lord and being saved.Click to expand...
Let's look at it objectively. Now when the unregenerate man picked up this tract he had to understand the spiritual truth that was written on that tract in order for the Holy Spirit to convict him that he might be saved. That is the only choice you have. God uses His Word. He uses the Holy Spirit through His Word. But he must have the revelation of the Word first in order that the Holy Spirit might use it. The Gospel does not work in a vacuum.
Then regeneration/salvation take place. Prior to that, if you read his testimony, there was nothing Christian about him. He was a rebel in the face of God. He stood against God inwardly and outwardly.
EVERYBODY who knows beans from apple butter about Calvinism understands that that is what MOST Calvinists believe.Click to expand... -
jbh28 said: ↑What's your proof that God had nothing to do with Taylor's understanding of the Scripture? You seem to be begging the question here. the Scripture, not just Calvinist, teach that the natural man cannot understand.Click to expand...
This goes along with God's expectation of the unregenerate or of "all men everywhere to repent." This was not a command given to believers, but it is a command God gave to the unregenerate that he expects to be obeyed.
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