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Featured Calvinist Confusion

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Jan 9, 2019.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Originally "Calvinism" was used by Lutherans to refer to Calvin's teaching regarding Communion. I believe the term should refer to doctrine that distinguished Calvin's denomination from other Reformed churches and doctrines of that trajectory (Calvin's view of communion; Penal Substitution Theory; the Five Points of Calvinism; the nature of Christ's suffering; etc.). Obviously things spread out and change (for example, Dispensationalism was at first popular only among Calvinists). I guess I'd say the real Calvinists today are Presbyterians.

    Around here a "Calvinist" is typically someone who affirms a certain number of the points of Calvinism (or the "Doctrines of Grace"). It's usually restricted to soteriology and the Calvinistic answer to the five articles. Personally I do not see how one can be anything but a five point Calvinist (the logic is clearest when seen through the whole defense).

    I don't like that definition because I affirm all five points but am definitely not a Calvinist.
     
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    The "free will guy" tells it from his perspective.
    Then God's word comes along, and tells him ( that "free will guy", that used to be me ) why He chose to repent and believe.

    Yes, from my perspective, I chose to count it all loss and follow God...but again, God's word comes along, and tells me why I chose to follow Jesus Christ.
    Out of left field, I heard the word of God that described my situation before Him, as a helpless sinner, and believed it.
    No choice was actually required.

    I simply believed.:)

    Why did I believe?
    God's word tells me that I believed because I was chosen by Him ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) and given the gift of belief ( Philippians 1:29 ).
     
    #62 Dave G, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Close enough...John Knox, if I get my history right. ;)
     
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    So...
    Here's what I've gotten so far being on this forum:

    To most "non-Calvinists", anyone who believes and teaches the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is labeled as a "Calvinist".
    Unless of course you're a "non-Calvinist" who believes in the "Doctrines of Grace", and then you will get labeled as a "Calvinist" by the other "non-Calvinists".

    Am I getting all of this right?:Sneaky
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep.

    Around here you are kinda lumped into one of two camps (Calvinism and Arminianism).

    Unless you are a non-Calvinist who can affirm five points (like me). Then you're just a regular old fashioned heretic. :Laugh
     
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  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Yep, now I understand......;)
     
  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    And there is no difference between Calvinist preachers to the masses and Non-Cal preachers to the masses. This is the issue. If a Calvinist really believes a person cannot choose Christ then stop preaching as MacArthur does begging the sinner to believe on Christ. Just preach what you believe! I have no problem with that. I don;t believe what you believe, but I do believe you should preach what you believe and not go about preaching "believe" when you believe it is impossible to believe unless God draws you.

    So preach it like you believe Calvinism! Say to your audience of sinners. "Some of you here today, maybe even all of you here today, may be drawn by God to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ which I am about to preach. Most likely God is not going to save you all. Some here God may do a work in your heart and save you. Others here God may pass over you and leave you for condemnation to hell. So here we go, let me begin with John 3:16, God so loved the world...........well, I will explain that later to those who God selects today to be saved........I know it say world, but, well, we will get to that later after you get learned better.......
     
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    ..................And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I really don't think you do. ;)
     
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  10. Cavell

    Cavell Member

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    John 3 verse 16.

    Can't be any simpler than that.
     
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The very quote you posted proves exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What I am claiming is that Calvinists believe God elected people based on His own will and the reason why one person is saved and another is not saved remains a mystery known only to God Himself. The person "elected" has not merited in any way his own salvation. Calvinism does not place man as contributing to his own salvation because that faith itself is of God.

    Obviously you deny this assertion, but when I read the quoted texts I can't get why or how you do so. I guess that's another "mystery".

    Maybe, if you will, you can explain for us the mind of God since it is not a "mystery" to you why God elected you and did not elect other people.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ok.....I know I'm going to regret it, but I'll ask anyway (this is what I was talking about earlier....I wouldn't be so opposed to Calvinism if it wasn't for the Calvinists :Laugh ).

    How does your statement prove exactly the opposite of the claim that Calvinists believe the reason God elects men to salvation and leaves others in their sin is a mystery?????
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Its their go to answer on anything they cannt defend
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    My main issue with Calvinists is how many have proven themselves to be absolutely horrible people. They claim to hold the "truth" but many seem (in my experience) to be almost as horrible as me. :Unsure

    A few are so dedicated to their "camp" they will invent disagreements to gather around (as I believe @TCassidy 's post proves). Some absolutely love an echo chamber but become combative when faced with Christians who may not completely agree with their ideas.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Cavell, I am a simple basic Christian who also loves Jn.3:16....so I am not sure what you mean by posting this fine verse.
    . 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
     
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Not really. It is easily defended. God does His will for His own glory.

    When Israel was chosen from among the nations....God gave some explanation;
    6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

    10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

    11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

    It is not spoken of as a mystery.
    jer313 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    Jew and gentile on equal footing was previously a mystery,
    Eph3
    Ephesians 3 King James Version (KJV)
    3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


    and of course this:
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
     
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Why did you believe and not Him?
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    It's not a mystery because God told us the reason He elects men to salvation. "According to the good pleasure of His will." Romans 9:15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So you would have to be Calvinist at least in Sotierology, if you really do affirm the 5 points of Grace!
     
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