Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.

[EdSutton]

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

One sin is as bad as another.
If you lie it is just as bad as committing murder--just as bad as breaking the whole law.

If you lie (even an unintentional falsehood, or a "little white lie") or if you "show partiality" to those of different station, such as one thread currently running speaks of?? with 'separating' "bus kids" in worship, or if you do not really "love your neighbor as yourself", or if you commit adultery, or if you commit murder (or even 'hate' one's 'brother' without cause) you have already broken the whole law! Each and every single part of it. That is exactly the point James is making in that verse, in the context. And the 'best' thing that can be said of one who actually does "love your neighbor as yourself" is that you do well. NOthing is said about this being spiritual; nothing about assuring that oe cannot sin later, or anything anywhere near like that.

I'll help!!

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a]you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “Do not murder.”[c]Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. (Jas. 2:8-11 , NKJV)

Once again, the words "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" are not a summation of several Mosaic precepts all rolled into one, but a direct and specific command found in the law. (Lev. 19:18) Jesus said that that was one of the two greatest commandments in the Law, something He did not say about either murder, or adultery!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

even an unintentional falsehood, or a "little white lie

is not a lie.

A lie is to intentionally tell a falsehood to decieve someone, knowing it is false. I don't know about the "white lie", don't know what that is.

 

[EdSutton]

I will let scripture take care of some of them for now ED;

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

OK, we got adulterers, thieves, drunkards and swindlers on my list of categories. That is 3 out of the 15, so far, since I included stealing an/or swindling as one category. Any others from anyone?

Ed

 

[npetreley]

I know this will probably draw flames, but...

Isn't there a difference between commiting the sin of theft and being a thief?

NO, I AM NOT SAYING STEALING IS PERMISSIBLE AS LONG AS YOU DON'T DO IT CONTINUALLY.

Again, isn't there a difference between commiting the sin of theft and being a thief?

 

[Brother Bob]

A few more Ed; there may be duplicates. None are the words of Brother Bob, but all scripture.

Gal 5:
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[DHK]

That is your problem DHK; you take this as meaning the Mosaic Law, when it mean the Law of the Commandments. No wonder you have a problem.

8: If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

I am sure the shirt I have on now is of different material and I have no intentions of stoning anyone to death. Jesus said to love you enemies. You can not rightly divide the word of truth DHK;.

Note the verses that you quote, you now give them context. James nowhere says that it is the Mosaic Law, but rather calls it the Royal Law, that is the law of the King, our King, Jesus Christ. It is applicable to you, to this age of grace. It is also found in Mat.5 as part of the Sermon on the Mount. It is also found in Mark 10 in a discussion with a rich young ruler.
It is defined in 1John 3 (your favorite chapter).

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is a transgression of the law; God's law. He didn't say the OT law. He said His law. If he mentioned murder in the Ten Commandments, he also mentioned it in Gal.5; 1Cor.6 and in many other places. Murder and adultery, and lying (little white ones included) are not confined to the OT.

 

[EdSutton]

is not a lie.

A lie is to intentionally tell a falsehood to decieve someone, knowing it is false. I don't know about the "white lie", don't know what that is.

4lie n 1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker 2 : something that misleads or deceives 3: a charge of lying

Brother Bob, while what you say is correct, as far as it goes, it does not go anywhere near far enough. The above definition(s) is copied verbatim from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, © 1977. Three of the four definitions say nothing at all about intent.

In fact one can absolutely believe what one is saying and have every good motive, possible and what is related can still be a lie.

surely you have heard someone, somewhere, sometime, speak of "a little white lie". And does not a "little white lie", by its own definition, imply an intent to deceive?

It doesn't have to be a big "whopper" at all.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Note the verses that you quote, you now give them context. James nowhere says that it is the Mosaic Law, but rather calls it the Royal Law, that is the law of the King, our King, Jesus Christ. It is applicable to you, to this age of grace. It is also found in Mat.5 as part of the Sermon on the Mount. It is also found in Mark 10 in a discussion with a rich young ruler.
It is defined in 1John 3 (your favorite chapter).

He lists the Laws he was speaking of;
10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

 

[Brother Bob]

4lie n 1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker 2 : something that misleads or deceives 3: a charge of lying

I will stick with what I believe to be a lie. With your definition, some one could tell you something untrue and if you repeated it, they you would be lying. I think it is with "intent" Ed; in the scriptures. The Lord knows if you know if its a lie or not. There is no guessing when the punishment is handed out.

5579
yeudoV
pseudos
psyoo'-dos
from yeudomai - pseudomai 5574; a falsehood:--lie, lying.

 

[DHK]

He lists the Laws he was speaking of;
10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So what are you saying then Bob?
Have you changed your mind?
It is now ok to go out and kill and commit adultery?
Am I still talking to the same person??

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
He lists the Laws he was speaking of;
10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So what are you saying then Bob?
Have you changed your mind?
It is now ok to go out and kill and commit adultery?
Am I still talking to the same person?? __________________
DHK

DHK; sometimes you get so far off no one understand you. I guess I do at times myself but not this time. I am saying James was talking about keeping the Ten Commandments.

 

[EdSutton]

It is defined in 1John 3 (your favorite chapter).

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is a transgression of the law; God's law. He didn't say the OT law. He said His law. If he mentioned murder in the Ten Commandments, he also mentioned it in Gal.5; 1Cor.6 and in many other places. Murder and adultery, and lying (little white ones included) are not confined to the OT.

Don't know about anyone's favorite chapter, but the "Royal Law" is defined in I John 2: 8, and is, in fact, a direct quote of Lev. 19:18b, as I said above.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

DHK; sometimes you get so far off no one understand you. I guess I do at times myself but not this time. I am saying James was talking about keeping the Ten Commandments.

Why did you leave off verse 9 in your quote? It too spoke of "transgressing the law" by showing partiality. I'm pretty sure that is not one of the Ten Commandments, or do we now have eleven?

"Thou shall be impartial!"

Sorry! - Not in my Biblical list of The Ten Commandments, but maybe I need another Bible version.

Maybe one of the paraphrases would have it there, but I seriously doubt it!

Ed.

 

[DHK]

DHK; sometimes you get so far off no one understand you. I guess I do at times myself but not this time. I am saying James was talking about keeping the Ten Commandments.

Whosoever shall keep the whole and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.

Ten Commandments or not, you are either condoning or condemning sins like murder and adultery. Which is it? Because it is in the Ten Commandments does that makes antinomianism right?

 

[Brother Bob]

Whosoever shall keep the whole and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.

Ten Commandments or not, you are either condoning or condemning sins like murder and adultery. Which is it? Because it is in the Ten Commandments does that makes antinomianism right?__________________
DHK

Where did you ever since I been on here get the impression that I condoned the breaking of the Ten Commandments.

It is you that give people a "pass" when it comes to the Ten Commandments.

 

[EdSutton]

I will stick with what I believe to be a lie. With your definition, some one could tell you something untrue and if you repeated it, they you would be lying. I think it is with "intent" Ed; in the scriptures. The Lord knows if you know if its a lie or not. There is no guessing when the punishment is handed out.

5579
yeudoV
pseudos
psyoo'-dos
from yeudomai - pseudomai 5574; a falsehood:--lie, lying.

Bob, even the words "pseudo" and "pseudomai" does not automatically carry the idea of intent in them. Nor does the word "falsehood" which you have quoted from Strong's. Merely that it is untrue. But I do agree that the Lord knows exactly if one knows it it a lie or not, and exactly whether it is false, even if one did not know that to be the case. Have you ever 'repeated' or stated anything that you believed to be true only to later find out it was false? And if it did turn out to be false, could it still be said to be true? Nope, and that is one definition of "lie" that both Webster and Strong give. And you even quoted Strong where he said "falsehood", no less. I looked up #5579 just to see. It says nothing there, about "intent" either. #5574 does have intent in one of the two meanings, but not in the other. It is not automatic, as you are implying.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, even the words "pseudo" and "pseudomai" does not automatically carry the idea of intent in them. Nor does the word "falsehood" which you have quoted from Strong's. Merely that it is untrue. But I do agree that the Lord knows exactly if one knows it it a lie or not, and exactly whether it is false, even if one did not know that to be the case. Have you ever 'repeated' or stated anything that you believed to be true only to later find out it was false? And if it did turn out to be false, could it still be said to be true? Nope, and that is one definition of "lie" that both Webster and Strong give. And you even quoted Strong where he said "falsehood", no less. I looked up #5579 just to see. It says nothing there, about "intent" either. #5574 does have intent in one of the two meanings, but not in the other. It is not automatic, as you are implying.

Ed

Sorry Ed; but do you really think the Lord goes through all that, I don't even think the Lord would hold you responsible for telling something you thought to be the truth, unless you were just being a "busybody".

 

[Brother Bob]

"Thou shall be impartial!"

Well if you loved your neighbor as yourself, then there would be no partial. It don't say to love one neighbor. I saw that verse 9 Ed; and studied for a minute and figured it came under loving even your enemies.

 

[DHK]

Where did you ever since I been on here get the impression that I condoned the breaking of the Ten Commandments.

It is you that give people a "pass" when it comes to the Ten Commandments.

James 2:10 speaks of God's law. It says plainly that if we break one of God's laws we are guilty of breaking them all.
Your reply was:

That is your problem DHK; you take this as meaning the Mosaic Law, when it mean the Law of the Commandments. No wonder you have a problem.

That is the same as saying: "No, brother DHK, that is the OT, we don't have to obey that law. We live in the age of grace."
If that was not your intent then why did you even bring the Ten Commandments into this discussion. What was the point that you were making? Yes it refers to the Ten Commandments, and the Ten Commandments as Jesus explained them in the gospels.

The royal law: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself.


Murder is being angry with your brother.
Adultery is lusting after a woman, etc.

Sin originates from the heart.

--All sin in God's eyes is the same. A lie is the same as murder or adultery. That is the point of the verse. Read the passage again.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is the same as saying: "No, brother DHK, that is the OT, we don't have to obey that law. We live in the age of grace."
If that was not your intent then why did you even bring the Ten Commandments into this discussion. What was the point that you were making? Yes it refers to the Ten Commandments, and the Ten Commandments as Jesus explained them in the gospels.

The royal law: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself.

The Ten Commandments were carried across the river Jordan unto the promised land. Jesus quoted the Ten Commandments. Apostle Paul when teaching us what sin is, quoted the Ten Commandments. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Circumcism, The Law of Sacrifice and the washing of the pots and pans, the law that Moses dished out. But the Ten Commandments came directly from God to His people. Jesus added two, Paul gave us other things Christian cannot do, but we do not go back and offer up the blood of bulls and calves anymore, nor are we circumcised in the flesh.