Can God change his mind?

I agree - the warning of hell is conditional, just like the warnings to Hezekiah and Moses were conditional. If mercy is sought, mercy will be granted.

 

I think Webdog and I (and you) essentially agree as I posted earlier. God changed His course due to a certain condition being met, namely the request for mercy.

 

I can live with dat. :thumbs:

 

Don't want to let this post go unnoticed - very good.

 

...and pure speculation while showing faulty hermeneutics. You do not use one totally unrelated situation to interpret another.

 

That could be a comparison I suppose, but suppose Abraham had a copy of one of our complex theological dissertations on the subject and didn't believe God when he commanded him to kill his son.

I can just imagine what Abraham might have said, "Oh, God, I just read Piper's book, so clearly you are speaking anthropomorphically and do not intend for me to really do what you just commanded for me to do, because that would be breaking your promise and you can't change your plans... "

I know, I'm being silly, but really that is what all this leads too. Having any type of meaningful conversation with God is next to impossible in this system, IMO. How do you talk to someone who you believe is "making" you say what you are about to say? It just doesn't work.

Could it be that God revealed himself in these terms because that is how he has chosen to relate to us? Should we really try to over intellectualize it? Maybe that is what Jesus was warning against when he reminded us to become like a child. Don't make this too complicated. (i.e. Follow the example of the Jews in writing the Mishnah and the Talmud)

 

You're right - you are being silly (I'll be generous), because you've constructed yet another silly strawman, unless you are arguing against some Hyper-C/Hyper-Determinist. But I don't see any of those around here right now, so yes, your post is quite silly.

 

I put quotes around the word "making" because I understand that different Calvinists explain themselves in different ways and to different extremes. But even the Westminister Confession of Faith, one of the most accepted Reformed confessions teaches that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, which would include every thought, motive and act of man, wouldn't it?

I addressed this in another thread some time back:

 

I am not telling God anything - He is telling us. If God knows everything, and I assume you agree with that, right? -- then how can God "react" to something? I disagree that God changes course in response to prayer, because how can he change course if he knows about the prayer in advance? Then that is not changing course.

 

So, if someone for the very first time walked up to you and told you this story verbatim, what would you conclude?

EX 32:
8 They have quickly turned from the way I commanded them; they have made for themselves an image of a calf. They have bowed down to it, sacrificed to it, and said, 'Israel, this is your God, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.' " 9 The Lord also said to Moses: "I have seen this people, and they are indeed a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave Me alone, so that My anger can burn against them and I can destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." 11 But Moses interceded with the Lord his God: "Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people You brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and a strong hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'He brought them out with an evil intent to kill them in the mountains and wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from Your great anger and change Your mind about this disaster [planned] for Your people. 13 Remember that You swore to Your servants Abraham, Isaac, and Israel by Yourself and declared to them, 'I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and will give your offspring all this land that I have promised, and they will inherit [it] forever.' " 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the disaster He said He would bring on His people.

 

Here are a few verses that I feel should be considered when one is trying to get a handle on the mind of God.

Jeremiah 7:31 (King James Version)
31And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


Jeremiah 19:5 (King James Version)
5They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35 (King James Version)
35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

......then how can God "react" to something?.....

Please read the account of David in 1Sam 23:10ff.
There one will find David asking God if Saul will come down on him and also asking if the men of Keilah will help Saul.
God's answer is yes, Saul will come down and the men of Keilah will help him.
But did it happen, no, David survived.
Was the whole outcome influenced by the action of men? yes

Truly God knows everything; but that does not limit God to only knowing what is going to happen, for God also knows what would have happened if man had taken a different course.

But through it all, God is so great He can still get done what He wants done in spite of the choices and actions of man.

I like to think of it this way:
You are in a chess match with God. Whom do you think will win???? God no doubt. Why?
Perhaps it is because God not only knows each move you will make in advance; but He also knows each move you could have made.
Therefore it matters not what move is made, God will always know how to counter the move to obtain the end result of His desire.
But all the while in the chess match, God does not instruct or control the choice of the move of the man.

God is much greater than a ruler who has His will carried out simply because He ruled it to be so.
God's plan will come about no matter what choice or direction is taken by man.

 

Wow, that's a whole lot of philosophizing in yer post there - something I've been told we shouldn't try to do.

Anyways, I don't equate ordaining or decreeing as the same as "making." God doesn't make people sin, He allows them to. And in His allowance of sin, He ordains it to occur - otherwise, He would stop it from happening.

 

So what of open theism, then?

 

This is one of the problems with Calvinism, at least five-point Calvinism. We cannot take Scripture at what is says, we must change it to fit into our doctrine.

If the Scripture says God changed His mind, then God changed His mind!

 

You mean like the text that says we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son? Or perhaps the text where Jesus says He came into the world to do His Father's will, which was that all of which the Father had given Him, none would be lost? Or maybe you have in mind where it says that those Jesus died for would be justified? Yep, non-cals never have to change scripture to fit their doctrine.

 

But did God know this would happen? Yes, He did. Does this show God changed his mind? No. Certainly, God knew that David's men would surrender him, and told David, so he fled.

I agree; is this the Middle Knowledge of God? But I still say God knows what men will decide. I am not sure if you agree with that or not.

And God doesn't change his mind. I don't see how this has to do with God changing his mind. God is not influenced by anyone; if He were, he would not be God.

 

Open theism is considered a heresy by some theologians. I think if it isn't, it's close.

Open theists say that God only knows the "future that can be known;" i.e., God does not know what you will have for lunch next Tuesday if you don't know.

 

You are asking me "how", and my I answer is "I don't know". All I know is what the Bible says, and there is a clear tension found in numerous places.

 

So you believe in free will? (defined: man could have done otherwise than what he ends up doing?)