They do for why they are grieving the Holy Spirit in them.
When they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation by that sign of tongues for private use; hence the voice of strangers, and thus they are suffering a thief to break through, God will permit that strong delusion to occur. They are defiling the temple of God which is their bodies for believing that lie, and being left behind to be chastened by the Father Hebrews 12:4-14 & the Son 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 in removing the works that deny Him off of that foundation, so they can be received by Him after the great tribulation BUT their spirits are still saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15 in that day
We are not to condemn anyone as not saved for that would be dangerously close to denying the Lord that bought them
Paul addressed the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15
Paul is still addressing those who have gone astray & not follow after the tradition taught of us but are disorderly like they are in those movements of the spirit with confusion, madness & falling down per lack of self control, for why we are to obey the commandment with His help to withdraw from them...2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 BUT Paul did not judge them as never saved or even as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still. 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
See that in the scripture or not? It is plainly written meaning that truth.
Can Jesus Cast Out Saved Believers?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hark, Mar 12, 2021.
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Jesus chosen sheep, given to him by God the Father, are saved out of all the other sheep by God's gracious choice and they hear their Saviors voice and respond to his word.
John 6, John 10 and John 17 make this very clear. Matthew 25 shows God removing the sheep from the goats.
God does the work. God is not bound by us so that we must cooperate before God can act. -
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You are also simply reiterating your old points without interacting with anything I quoted or said. I think where the few relevant comments you made are failing is in making assumptions about salvation, the Kingdom, and the end times that do not exist in any of the texts you quoted. Unless you give me something to interact with, I am going to step away from this thread. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Saved does not equal lost.
Believer does not equal unbeliever.
By definition it is not possible.
Understanding the scriptures on the Covenant of redemption clears it up before this question is asked. -
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. KJV
As for any teaching where man must before God can.... being the voice of Satan, there is a "man should trust the Lord for all things to avoid looking to trusting in themselves to do His work in them and thru them" and sometimes I find I need His help to do even that.
That is what the cost of discipleship is really about when Jesus expounded on that to the multitude in Luke 14:25-35 It was not about leaving their lives and loved ones in serving Him on earth, but being ready to leave their lives & lived ones on earth. -
What you share from that literary does not reprove nor align with John 10:16, but John 10:16 does the other way. -
However, post # 53 & post # 54 does include scripture in response to your quote. You can click on "Click to expand" on your quote in my posts of #53 & #54 to read how I am responding to what you had posted, if you still wish to continue in following the discussion between you & me as it does relate to the topic of those who are cast out but still saved as I see His words says..
It is important because how believers judge those left behind may very well be how they judge those alive today as not saved or not a true believer when I say His words says they still are but have gone astray as He will not lose anyone given to Him but some will be left behind to be received later on after the great tribulation.. unless they repent with His help & by His grace.. -
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Appropriate for this thread. A selection from Pilgrims Progress:
“Christian left his path to go to Mr. Legality’s house for help. As Christian neared the hill, he was struck by how high and foreboding the hill appeared. One side of the hill hung precariously over the path that wound its way around it, and Christian feared that the overhanging hill would fall on him.
Filled with fear, Christian stopped his journey and stood still, wondering what he should do. His burden now seemed heavier to him than it was just moments before he had taken this detour off the path that Evangelist had instructed him to follow.
Flashes of lightning came out of the hill, and Christian was afraid that he would be burned. Christian began to sweat and quake with fear. He was sorry that he had taken Mr. Worldly-Wiseman’s counsel.”...
...“The person to whom you were sent for relief, whose name is Legality, is the son of the slave woman who, with all her children, is still in bondage. The mountain that you feared would fall on your head is Mount Sinai. Now if the slave woman and all her children are in bondage, how can you expect them to set you free from your burden?”
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All believer are saved.. and in that respect of that fold, but that fold is divided up by those who follow His voice and those that went astray building on that foundation works that deny Him for why they are being denied & disqualified to dine with Him. Nevertheless that foundation remains as that seal of adoption does too for why no one will lose their salvation, but are at risk of losing the rewards of their crowns as well as at risk of being a castaway as Paul stated that could happen to himself too.
1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
If you consider how some of those that disagree as saying those left behind were never saved by being false prophets or living in unrepentant sin, as if they never sinned in their lives, I should wonder how they judge the believers in the land of the living?
Indeed, by their words, they must wonder if they are saved too and whether or not those who struggle in the flesh with temptations, if they should give up & just say it is hopeless when I would say to them that is why we are to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the father & the Son..
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This link addresses such bondages.
Discerning Matthew 5:33-37
But in all respect, it cannot be applied to John 10:1-16 for how those saints are going astray.
Incidentally, if neither believer repent of those iniquities, they are still saved but excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven, but still saved to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation for I agree He cannot lose anyone.. -
I wasn't making any side points. I was using the example from history to show that while there may be various levels of honor in Heaven, it is not a separation of the "barely saved" and the "super saved" like you seem to be suggesting. All who are saved are equals in Christ and all receive the full inheritance, as shown with the (Galatians 3:28-29) quote.
The part about Communion was also not a side point. It was to add to the same point that all who are saved are part of the Communion of Christ and thus part of the Marriage Supper, because it is Christ Himself. Same point with my (Ephesians 5:30-32) quote.
You mention the virgins who did not have their lamps trimmed- they do not make it to Heaven. The door is shut and there is no more time for repentance. This is not about the rapture, but about the Last Judgment. How is this true? Read the following parable about the talents (Matthew 25:26-34, 41-46), it is related to that same point. The wicked servant who did not produce more talents was thrown into the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Then Jesus says that the sheep and goats will be separated and the goats (the lazy virgins, the wicked servant, etc.) will be thrown into the fire. This is all proving the error of your point that there are "saved people in Heaven who do not get a seat at the Table."
My part about Hymenaeus and Philetus was also about showing that there are not "vessels of dishonour" in Heaven. The explanation of the context was not a random side point, but to explain to you this point. Your idea of H & P teaching on tongues is clearly wrong because the text plainly states that they were teaching that the Resurrection had already happened (2 Timothy 2:18)- nothing related to tongues. This false teaching is what Paul called "profane and vain babblings"- people teaching things that they know nothing about.
Brother, the thing you are not grasping is that those who remain workers of iniquity until the Judgment do not get into Heaven. It doesn't matter if they claimed to be saved and believe in Christ because their works will prove that they were not of Him. They end up in Hell if they do not repent. All who get to Heaven are fully accepted and get a seat at the Table. Anyone not at the Table is outside the Kingdom and in Hell. You quote Scripture, but you read too many things into them that are not there. You are reading from the perspective of some false doctrines you have picked up somewhere. -
There is the least in the kingdom of heaven that break even the least of His commandments and teach others so that are separated from the great that keeps His commandments and teaches others so. This is how they are both saved for why they are in His kingdom and yet what separates them in His kingdom.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
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Like the Judaizers in Galatia, you seem to think the initial moment of salvation is by grace, but the rest of the relationship with God is then by works. Paul very clearly squashes that idea in his letter to the Galatians. He then expands upon this in his letter to the Romans.
It is not uncommon for new believers, who were saved out of the law by grace, to fall back into the law after they are saved. Your dialogue here points to your struggle to understand God's grace. -
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Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
As the OP is now banned for 6 months this thread is closed.
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