There are some that are not going to like my answer but here it is.
1. Sola Scriptura is the answer. Again, all that means is that the Bible is the final authority, and we search the Scriptures diligently until we are convinced that we have the answer. Normally God gives peace at that time.
Many revert back to this line of reasoning:
The Church Fathers say this, and therefore I believe. It doesn't matter what they say; it matters what the Bible says.
2. Concerning OSAS, I will simply say that anyone that believes that they can lose their salvation does not fully understand what salvation is all about. The doctrine of soteriology is a wonderful doctrine. Once understood properly one could never come to the conclusion that they can lose their salvation.
can we loose salvation ......
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by soninme, Jan 14, 2008.
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Interestingly, the doctrine of OSAS was not an issue among the Church Fathers. Everyone just assumed you could fall from grace (and it wasn't too hard to do) until after the Reformation. So I wonder how could they get it wrong for 1500 years and then discover this radical new doctrine in the same scripture that had been around since the 1st Century? -
In any event 1 John 1: 9 is still preaching to the lost and always has been. It has been debated for many years. In fact 1 John 1: 8-10, although not written to you, must still be squared in context and with itself. That would be found in 1 John 5: 1 that all who believe Jesus is the Messiah have been born of God and therefore they also love His Child. The final conclusion for the context is stated in 1 John 5: 18 that everyone born of God does not sin . . . And that is because the One that lives inside you, your spirit the one that has eternal life along with the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot sin regardless of what you do in and with your flesh body. You are sealed to the day of redemption so quit fighting it or rest in it. You can drag Him through your sins but you cannot loose Him and 1 John is telling you so right here.
As far as James is concerned read the first verse of the letter and answer the question, is this letter addressed to me? Again you cannot just pluck verses from here and there and say they apply to you when they have no bearing on the situation, especially when taken by themselves and totally out of context. Take this passage James 5 and start with verse 13, better still start at the beginning. And by the way remember to have your olive oil.
Later,
John the Blabtist -
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How about the words of Paul? "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS profitable for doctrine" -- is that also not for us? How many books in your Bible?
How about the fact that Paul writes his letters TO a specific church - do we delete them as well?
Seems like a very odd way to try to protect OSAS.
in any case you still have Matt 18 -- "forgiveness revoked"
John 15:1-5 "being removed from the vine of Christ and burned up"
Rom 11 "Removed from the olive tree - due to unbelief"
in Christ,
Bob -
in other words taking a hard look at the "real" test cases that OSAS must survive to "be Biblically correct"
As was pointed out on page 1 -
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This is why Theosis in the Orthodox Church is so important, as Christians we are attacked more severely by the devil and his minions than a lost soul. OSAS puts one in a false sense of security, making one believe that there’s nothing they themselves can do to lose salvation. Most (not all) people that adhere to OSAS have problems with sin themselves and have never been trained how to combat sin (their answer is: don’t worry about it, you’re forgiven…as the sin eats away at their soul…to the point where they’re not sure if they’re saved or not anymore)…this is why I believe this…as a former Baptist, our preacher would say that on many occasions he would visit the elderly in the hospital waiting to die, and the number one question to him was…am I saved, I’m worried that I’m not truly saved. Years and years of OSAS and at the last moment they start to flinch. I’d say they were indeed saved!
I’d also say this too that most (not all) OSASer’s have a shallow understanding of Biblical Salvation as taught by the Church anyway.
InXC
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Those are some good points to think about - thanks for sharing.
At the core - the problem with OSAS is that God is giving warning after warning after warning in scripture to protect the saints against falling away - those who view God's warnings as "meaningless because nobody can actually fall away if they are really born-again" are not benefitted by that portion of scripture that their doctrine tells them to ignore.
that is the real danger.
in Christ,
Bob -
BobRyan,
That's true. I can easy see so many warnings in the Bible throughout from Genesis to Revelation.
It is more than just 'believed', 'confess-Romans 10:9,10 & 13(many Baptists use this for soul winning). Salvation is required for being commit our life to Christ with faith and obedience till death.
Rev. 3:5 says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I WILL(future tense) not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I WILL(future tense) his name before my Father, and before his angels."
This verse is not hard to read. Christ promises us, IF anyone who overcoming the world in the lifetime by the death, then Christ will not removed person's name from the book of life.
In other word, Christ warns us, if we FAIL to overcome the world by the time we die, our names might be removed away from the book of life. Then, what's happen? Cast away into the lake of fire - Rev. 20:14-15.
Word, 'overcome' means, to victory, fight, endure.
Once, we believed and accepted Christ, then we are begin the race(Matt. 7:13-14), start with wide road, like as we climbing up to the highest peak of the hill or mountian, as the road become more difficult and narrow. Many of us easy give up and turn away from the race, and at the end of our life, we will not be saved - Matt. 10:22; & Matt 24:13.
We must fight against sins, world, and Satan in our life. If we give up on them, let them overcome upon us, then, we will not be a overcomer at the end, then our name might be removed from the book of life, cast away in the lake of fire.
That what Christ actual saying according Rev. 3:5.
Sorry to saying it. Do not argue with me. Argue with Christ of Rev. 3:5.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! -
Amen DP!
1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified" -
How instructive for those who will look past their doctrinal bias telling them to water it down or ignore it.
in Christ,
Bob -
I did not say we can ignore and scripture or that it is not useful. As all scripture is profitable for doctrine, teaching, reproof etc. But not all is addressed to us.
When you read where God says take some gopher wood and build an ark, it's probably not a good idea to ask God "What's gopher wood? . . . . . And oh, by the way, while You are at it, what is an ark?" That scripture was not to you but certainly for your diligent study and how it fits into the overall scheme of things. One must always rightly divide the Word of God as Paul told Timothy and us too in II Tim 2: 15.
Later,
John -
HP: First, I believe Zenas has a very valid point. The logic DHK tries to employ in rebuttal is simply an attempt to employ a logical fallacy, arguing from silence. Such fallacy adds no validity to DHK’s position in the least, and as a matter of fact emphasizes how weak his position on OSAS in reality must in fact be. -
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HP: I would disagree. I believe history shows clearly the advent of OSAS as well as the notion of original sin far subsequent to the early Church or the writings of the early Christian fathers. Whenever an idea has not been established as a clear doctrine held or sanctioned by the Church, including the ECF,s I would basically find it wise to conclude it is not truth and not established by Scripture.
I believe it is entirely possible to trace the roots of OSAS to the same individual responsible for the false notion of original sin, i.e., to Augustine, the father of the doctrine of original sin. He was the introducer of many ideas foreign to the early Church and biblical writ. -
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When you are saved, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you. Can you kick him out? Nope. Even when you turn your back, He still whispers in your ear....."what are you doing?"
Trust me, I walked out of God's will for over 20 years, but I knew in my heart I was saved, I just had to make the choice to go back and live in His will.
Debbie Mc -
I can trace it to Moses, to all the prophets, to Jesus, to all the Apostles Isn't that far enough back? I think that at least 6000 years back should be good enough. -
HP: Ahhh yes. It is those illusive penumbral presuppositions that the Calvinist seems to be so adept at pulling out from under the pages or lying hidden between the lines. :smilewinkgrin:
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