Can you be saved and not know it?

[pinoybaptist]

This isn't the case according to Christ.

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

The rich young ruler turned his back on the gospel and eternal life because he was unwilling to make Christ the Lord of his life instead of his wealth.

okay, so now we have another prerequisite to add to Christ's finished work of salvation for His people ?

That is, make Him the Lord of your life first, and then, and only then, will you get saved ?

Okay.

Now, once in another thread I said this: the preacher of the gospel has no more power to cause someone to be eternally saved, than the attorney bearing good news of a benevolent uncle who left his money to a relative has the power to make the beneficiary rich. The beneficiary is rich because she had an uncle who left her money, whether she knew about the news or not made no difference. She is rich.

She does not have to know she is rich, she does not have to believe she is rich, she does not even have to act rich. She is rich, despite all that. Heck, she does not even have to know who that uncle is because none of that makes any difference. She was known to the uncle, and her uncle decided she was to be his beneficiary.

The saved child of God is saved, whether he knows it or not. He does not have to know it, he does not have to believe it, he does not even have to act saved because he is saved despite what he does not do, assent to, accept, believe, or act like.

It'll be much better if he does know, but it is not necessary for him to know.

So, where in this Scripture that you quoted does Jesus ever say the rich young ruler is damned ?

It shows the corruption of man, including the elect, and his inability to fully serve the Creator, because his interests will always clash with the God who loves him, and only highlights the fact that Jesus and Jesus only has ever had, or will ever have, an interest lined up with God's.

Tell me, Straight and Narrow, that you have always put God first, that you will always put God first, and there is no way in heaven or hell that God will not always be first with you.

 

[ituttut]

Thank you for the reply amity. I'll try to keep it short. Ha!

Amity is back. I don't understand that part about the two kingdoms, and I have never really heard about that before."

We see the "Kingdom is at hand" in the Gospels, up until the stoning of Steven when Israel was cut-off, and the tree begins dying. Damascus Road is the birth of the "Body of Christ" and we can see it growing in the Book of Acts, as the tree dies. We go from "earthly" to "heavenly". There are very few here that have any idea of the two foundations (churches) included in the "Kingdom of Heaven". Oh what a difference I see.

I will try to add a few words to what I already said to hopefully clarify. I believe that while we are in the flesh, i.e. while we are alive on earth and still sinners, we cannot have perfect faith. We only see through a glass darkly. We cannot KNOW with the certainty we will have when we actually do see Christ face to face. Meanwhile the faith we do have is used to console and reassure one another. But faith is not the same thing as certain knowledge.

I see what you are saying, and many believe as you. I believe we both have the same faith, which is faith in the one who can, and has saved me, and also you. It is not our faith that saves us but the faith of Jesus Christ. When we go back to the Cross we are to believe that is where our every sin was taken care of, and yes I believe the sin I could do today, and every other day of my life, was taken care of. He says He died for me, and for you, and I believe Him.

I could tell each one of you "Yes, I am sure you are going to heaven." and not be lying when I see fruit, because I do feel utterly confident at that moment. But in reality, more especially in regard to myself, I still see myself sinning something horrible, acting from selfish motives, really every 'good' act I try to do is tainted by something impure. O wretched woman that I am! I don't believe in perfectibility on earth, and I am sure most of us don't (we are Baptists, after all) but it is so much easier to see fruit in people I don't know well, only seeing their good side of course. When I see fruit in myself I often wonder "is that the "real" me, or is it the me I wish to project to others."

I see "fruit" of the Christian in a different light than many others. I see the Body of Christ, and not the "Kingdom Church" in Romans 1:13. Paul The Apostle to the Gentile shows once again here that he is our Apostle, and no other Apostle ever makes that claim. "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles."

So I believe we today are to look to Paul and preach and teach his gospel, and it will bear "fruit" of the Body Church. As we read a little further we notice Paul is not just our Apostle today, but the Jew also, for it is first to the Jew, and then the Gentile, which Paul did. Paul says three times in Acts he is going to the Gentile's, and God finally gets him there (Rome the seat of Gentiles to all the world at that time), but has to have him in chains to do so.

From this view we find no evidence of the "Kingdom Church" left, for on his arrival in that country of Gentile's, we find the last vestige of the Power of the Holy Spirit being shown. Today we know that awesome Power is no longer available in the world those Apostles of Jesus Christ was given. No more after that "serpent bite" then, or now, can anyone just ask and God will do it. Today we prayerfully ask respectfully, but with assurance know we will be heard.Today it is His will that will be done, as that "Kingdom Church" that was at hand no longer exists.

I do think the real me is often kept in check by my desire to serve Christ. Maybe that is the most any of us can do, and it is a process, something we are striving for over our lives. To bear Christ's image takes a lifetime. And we need divine grace for that every minute, so really any fruit we bear is the Holy Spirit acting through us. IOW, I don't really believe that regeneration takes all the depravity away! It just places the Holy Spirit in us in addition to the depravity, and after that there is a constant struggle. Meanwhile, what we are is hard, really impossible, to know.

Well said. In your doubters poem below I hope you won't mind I insert next to it one free of doubt. Mine made and written here is underlined. It will sound much better when reading alone.

"I am a stranger here below, "We are strangers here on earth,
And what I am, 'tis hard to know.
I seem so vile, so prone to sin And we know we are saved;
I fear that I'm not born again.

When I experience call to mind We are no longer blinded
My understanding is so blind
All feeling sense seems to be gone His own self, to us He gave.
Which makes me think that I am wrong.

I find myself out of the way It amazes me how we do stray,
My thoughts are often gone astray;
Like one alone I seem to be, and I know I am not alone.
O, is there anyone like me?

'Tis seldom I can ever see I know I'm not yet what He has planned;
Myself as I would wish to be
What I desire I can't attain, But what I am and do, He has atoned.
From what I hate, I can't refrain.

So far from God I seem to lie, If we lie, can we fall out of Him?
Which makes me often weep and cry;
I fear as last that I shall fall, Knowing sin is in me can make me cry.
For if a saint, then least of all.

I seldom find a heart to pray, But in our prayers we make way to Him,
So many things step in my way;
Thus filled with doubts, I ask to know, and isn't it He that dries our eyes?
Come, tell me, is it thus with you?

So by experience I do know, In me I know, I can do no good thing
There's nothing good that I can do;
I cannot satisfy the Law, For without Him, I am under the Law
Nor hope, nor comfort from it draw.

My nature is so prone to sin But in Him we are made righteous
Which makes my doing so unclean
That when I count up all the cost Through His faith we now stand in awe"
If not free Grace, then I am lost."

BTW, yesterday I had minor surgery, which is why I had to shut my big mouth for awhile, and my pastor's wife picked me up and drove me home. While we were at the pharmacist's getting my pain prescription filled, I apparently was catty to someone, and I don't really even know what I said (on drugs at the time, of course). I just sort of "came to" hearing my pastor's wife making some sort of apology for me to someone else, to the effect that I was in pain and had just come out of anesthesia. Maybe I was just being unsteady on my feet and acting drunk, but I have the feeling I was nasty to someone, true to my nature if you will. Have no idea though. One of the saints of God, you think you would have said if you saw me then?

My wife says I have the same problem. Let's keep working on it. Don't know about you but when we solve this one, there is another waiting. In these bodies there will always be that other one, but there is a day coming………….., and I look forward to it.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

okay, so now we have another prerequisite to add to Christ's finished work of salvation for His people ?

That is, make Him the Lord of your life first, and then, and only then, will you get saved ?

Okay.

Now, once in another thread I said this: the preacher of the gospel has no more power to cause someone to be eternally saved, than the attorney bearing good news of a benevolent uncle who left his money to a relative has the power to make the beneficiary rich. The beneficiary is rich because she had an uncle who left her money, whether she knew about the news or not made no difference. She is rich.

She does not have to know she is rich, she does not have to believe she is rich, she does not even have to act rich. She is rich, despite all that. Heck, she does not even have to know who that uncle is because none of that makes any difference. She was known to the uncle, and her uncle decided she was to be his beneficiary.

The saved child of God is saved, whether he knows it or not. He does not have to know it, he does not have to believe it, he does not even have to act saved because he is saved despite what he does not do, assent to, accept, believe, or act like.

It'll be much better if he does know, but it is not necessary for him to know.

So, where in this Scripture that you quoted does Jesus ever say the rich young ruler is damned ?

It shows the corruption of man, including the elect, and his inability to fully serve the Creator, because his interests will always clash with the God who loves him, and only highlights the fact that Jesus and Jesus only has ever had, or will ever have, an interest lined up with God's.

Tell me, Straight and Narrow, that you have always put God first, that you will always put God first, and there is no way in heaven or hell that God will not always be first with you.

I've never claimed to be perfect. Neither did the apostle Paul. But he constantly strived to put Christ first in his life. I don't agree at all that someone can be saved and not know it or saved and not practice it. This isn't a new requirement as you put it. It's what Jesus himself asked of us. Those who live according to the way you describe are simply not saved.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I've never claimed to be perfect. Neither did the apostle Paul. But he constantly strived to put Christ first in his life. I don't agree at all that someone can be saved and not know it or saved and not practice it. This isn't a new requirement as you put it. It's what Jesus himself asked of us. Those who live according to the way you describe are simply not saved.

Okay, I'll grant that you never claimed to be perfect. But the only way one can strive to put Christ first in his life is if he knows his sins have been forgiven, if this knowledge have given him godly sorrow, if he is a brand new person living in a body which is not exactly brand new with another person in that body who constantly strives against him, if his hope is anchored in the fact that the Son of God Himself is his guarantee and hope, a rock that cannot be moved.

And all these facts that he knows happened before he knew them, and he knew them because someone instructed them, and whoever instructed them had no more power to have caused their eternal salvation by virtue of his instruction, or the words of his instruction, or the paper on which he reads the words of his instruction.

Now, having known what he now knows, and refusing to obey, and insisting to live the old life, openly, publicly, defiantly, would be another thing. Then I will have reason to doubt he ever was my brother, or she ever was my sister, in Christ. But will I state this unequivocally ? I wot not. I will avoid him/her, I will exclude him/her from the congregation, but the final knowledge of whether or not he/she is God's own, is God's, not mine. He is the judge, not us.

And the same goes for me.

Though I live holily and without reproach as a Christian in front of finite, fallible human beings, though I obey to the letter every precept of God that I read in His instruction book, though I believe in the Doctrine of Grace and adhere to it, though I have humility, and love, do I dare claim with absolute certainty that I am saved ? Tjat I am heaven bound ? That I will be in heaven for eternity ?

I know that the Bible says there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Am I absolutely sure I am in Christ Jesus ? I know the Bible says God wrote the names of His people in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world. Am I absolutely sure my name is in that Book ? Was I there when He wrote the names of His people ?

I wasn't.

And if for that reason alone, I refuse to say that the currently practicing satanist, or the devout, idol kissing Roman Catholic, or the law obsessed JW, or the polygamist Mormon, and all of those practices so roundly judged by Baptists on this Board, are indeed hopelessly lost for all eternity, because the Lord of Eternity is God, He created time, and He can do whatever He pleases to do even at the last nanosecond of time, even to the quickening of these apparently (to us) sin-deadened souls because I know that the Bible says, "with God nothing shall be impossible".

I know that Christ, and Christ alone, is His people's hope, and without Him, they are nothing, and for that reason I anchor my hope in Him, cast all my burdens on Him, trust on His grace, lean on His faith and not mine, shun the things and the sins to the best of the grace He bestows, that He suffered and died for, and if in the end, I am not one of His own, then, what can I say ? Tell me what should I say, straight and narrow ?

Should I point my finger at Him and say He lied ? Should I point my finger at the past life I lived and boast of how holily I have lived for him ? Should I throw tantrums and roll around the floor kicking and screaming like a spoiled brat ?

Here are some more things I know.

God is merciful. God is just. God is good. God is longsuffering. God is Omniscient. God is Omnipotent. God delights in those who delight in Him.
God IS.

Now, back to the OP.

Can you be saved and not know it ?

Yes.

Am I saying that all satanists, JW's, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists, murderers, polygamists of all colors, are saved as one "Christian", "heaven-bound", "salvation-sure" Baptist on this board so falsely implied ?

No.

 

[Jim1999]

I grew up in the Church of England, attended church schools right up to University, and there was never a time when I did not believe. It was at my confirmation, however, through teaching, that I realized the Christ as my personal Saviour. It was not a great show; fireworks did not display. It was a quiet confidence that God had done a new work in me. Am I saved? Based on God's word, I am.

Can I be disobedient as was Jonah and Peter and other disciples? My redemption is not contingent on what I do, but what Christ did in me. Do I desire to show the fruits of that redeeming grace? Certainly. Does doing those works confirm my salvation? By no means! They simply show my love for the Saviour.

Just as emotion plays an important role in our lives, so does redeeming grace affect us emotionally. So, with Job, I can boldly say, that I shall stand with God in that last day because He said so in His word.

Can a person be saved and not know it? I find that rather difficult, and continue to believe that we have the word to know that we have grace. I cannot speak for another.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Salamander]

Where did you get the "confidence"
Definition is "self-reliance".

And if you don't have the fruit, the purpose for measuring was to see if you are in the "faith". What if you come up short when you measure yourself, does that mean you don't have the faith after all? This are not foul statements they are questions to your posts.

Why, right there in my good ol' KJB!

There is no "self-reliance" in anything found by faith in Christ.

If you are in the faith you will bear fruit.

Your foul statement was when you said I questioned your salvation and you have failed to provide the information as to where I ever have.

Pinoy's post is ridiculous and HOGWASH!

Show me one verse that tells anyman who was dead in tresspasses and sins and quickened by the Spirit, raise to new life, having passed from death unto life and does NOT know it?!?!?!?

Show me one verse that says one who was under conviction for their sin and found that sweet relief only salvation can give and they NOT know it?!?!?

Show me one verse that says that where the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God and one does NOT know it?

 

[Salamander]

How can one man tell another what he knows or don't know. I only ask about certain scriptures such as Romans 8:

Here is another one and don't take it as I am saying whether you know or not, but apparently Paul thought the Corinthians didn't know for sure they had Christ, and its one of the scriptures already mentioned on here. We are just debating so everyone remain cool.

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

This was a question Paul asked the Corinthians, whether they knew they had Christ or not. When did the knowledge get stronger than it was to the Corinthians.

Paul wasn't asking them if they were in the faith but was dealing with those who made false professions.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Jim and S&N very good explanations. God Bless you.

 

[Salamander]

By golly:

The more I read the posts here the more I wonder:

Is Jesus Christ truly God ?
Did He really save anyone ?
Did He really accomplish anything on His own, without the help of anyone ?
Is anyone's salvation really because of God's mercy ?
Is He really the Sovereign King of Heaven, Lord of Lords, the One who does His will in the army of heaven ?
Or was Nebuchadnezzar still simply reeling from the days of madness he was brought to ?

More stabbing into the air.

Because it seems to me that the gist of what most are saying here is that the work of salvation which Christ, alone, and that according to the Bible, performed, with no help from anyone, cannot really be effective unless the recipients of salvation know that Jesus Christ saved him already.

Show me one death patient that hasn't realized being brought back to life that wasn't in a coma at the time?

The creature must know, and the creature, possessing this knowledge, must live a life in accordance with this knowledge, because otherwise, the blood of the Lamb of glory was spilt for nothing.

The Blood of Christ was shed, there was no tipping over of a cup at Calvary.

And yet these same people will be quick to say out of the other side of the same mouths whereof they speak that Jesus Christ alone is Savior, and that they are dependent only on Jesus Christ.

seems you don't mind putting words into people's mouths?

Speak of doublespeak.

I wonder if Salamander realizes he is one of those bathing in his own hogwash.

Care to demonstrate how you came about this knowledge?

Care to show the creature how he cannot KNOW he has been changed and still changed?

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul was asking. Anyway. I believe a person knows that he is not the man he used to be and that a weight has been lifted off his shoulders.
To be saved it takes, you must believe that Jesus is the Christ.
To know you are saved, is to "believe" you are saved. You can say you know all you want, but I say that is what you believe,and so do I. How can I go farther than what my assurance in being saved is,and that is "to believe".

Your foul statement was when you said I questioned your salvation and you have failed to provide the information as to where I ever have.

Show me where I questioned your Salvation, I don't do that.

As far as confidence is concerned if it takes "self-reliance" then a person is relying on himself for his salvation it seems to me.
What not use what the good ole KJV says "Hope".

 

[pinoybaptist]

Show me one verse that tells anyman who was dead in tresspasses and sins and quickened by the Spirit, raise to new life, having passed from death unto life and does NOT know it?!?!?!?

The Bible is full of them, if you'll only clear the mucus off your eyes.

All sinners become saints in the Bible were quickened first, and then instructed, and then they knew of their salvation, and their Savior.

Were you born knowing you were saved ?

Did you get saved after knowing you were saved ?

Did you learn your abc's and know you had the ability to read and write before you even got instruction ?

 

[EdSutton]

Simply put to the OP question - Yes. One can be saved and not 'know' it.
Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. That and that alone is what saves one, some of the posters on the BB notwithstanding.

36 Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to eat. 37 And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, 38 and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying, “This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner.”
40 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”
So he said, “Teacher, say it.”
41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” (Lk. 7: 36-50)

35And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:
36And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.
37And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.
38And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
39And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
40And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,
41Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
43And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God. (Lk. 18:35-43 - KJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.;

31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (Jn. 3:16-18, 31-36)

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. (Acts. 16:29-32)

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” (Rom. 4:2-8)

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10)

1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,;
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (I Jn. 5:1a, 9-13)

All the emphases in the Scriptures above are mine, to draw attention.
All the passages save one, come from the NKJV. You have the words, here emphasized, of Moses, David, Jesus, John, the baptizer, Paul and John. Only John wrote for the expressed purpose of giving assurance. Yet a man or woman who has believed in Jesus has everlasting life, according to what is written. That, and that alone is the sole condition for salvation!

The devil nor the flesh cannot take that away, but they can and do cause us to doubt. But the doubt does not 'trump' what Scripture teaches. So, one might not 'know', but I John was written to remedy that. I suggest one read it.

Ed

 

[Salamander]

The Bible is full of them, if you'll only clear the mucus off your eyes.

All sinners become saints in the Bible were quickened first, and then instructed, and then they knew of their salvation, and their Savior.

Were you born knowing you were saved ?

Did you get saved after knowing you were saved ?

Did you learn your abc's and know you had the ability to read and write before you even got instruction ?

Oh, so you now believe people are born saved and later in life get saved.

Just for the note: dead in tresspasses and sins is LOST, unregenerated, NOT saved.

I was lost until I got saved and I KNEW it, and still do.

Now, where're your scriptures/ "the Bible is full of them", that say a person is saved and does not know it?

You have not even an indication of such HOGWASH!

 

[Salamander]

Paul was asking.

Show me where I questioned your Salvation, I don't do that.

Paul persistently caused men to question their salvation as the means to bring full assurance in they had passed from death unto life. He wanted all men to KNOW they were saved.

As far as confidence is concerned if it takes "self-reliance" then a person is relying on himself for his salvation it seems to me.
What not use what the good ole KJV says "Hope".

I suppose the reason why our confidence is best expressed as Titus 2:13 expresses that Blessed Hope is securely in Jesus Christ.

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul persistently caused men to question their salvation as the means to bring full assurance in they had passed from death unto life. He wanted all men to KNOW they were saved.

Seems he had a hard time getting this group to "know", don't you think?

I suppose the reason why our confidence is best expressed as Titus 2:13 expresses that Blessed Hope is securely in Jesus Christ.

Could be. I believe our "Hope" is Jesus Christ, anchor of the soul.

 

[Salamander]

Since my hope is in nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteousness and Jesus is that Blessed Hope, and the Spirit beareth witness with my spirit that I am a child of God, i will have to say that the confidence I have is that I know I am saved. Anyone who says they are saved and don't know it are lying.

Anyone who says that people are saved then they get saved is confused.

 

[Brother Bob]

Since my hope is in nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteousness and Jesus is that Blessed Hope, and the Spirit beareth witness with my spirit that I am a child of God, i will have to say that the confidence I have is that I know I am saved. Anyone who says they are saved and don't know it are lying.

I think you go too far. You are calling everyone who believes Romans 8 a liar. You can change it to confidence but the scripture says "Hope". All the other versions use "Hope" also, I think. Everyone but you.

Rom 8:24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Children of God who live by Romans 8 has been around a lot longer than you have. You just came trotting along here in the last few years and now "know" more that all those who went before you.

1Cr 8:2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

You need to speak for yourself more, and quit trying to speak for others for we will all give an account for ourselves. All the hateful words you use, will be answered for.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

You are leaving out the best part of the story... Christ loved him anyway, and when the disciples marvelled and asked "Who then can be saved?" He said "with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Allan - yes, there are people of other faiths who don't need an excuse, because they have seen outwardly or inwardly and are saved, yes, and don't know it. Doesn't the very passage of scripture you just quoted tell you that? But if you wish to argue that point, please start another thread.

No. This passage tells me that the rich young ruler went away "very sorrowful" and unsaved. He went to Hell because he put wealth ahead of devotion to Christ.

 

[Salamander]

I think you go too far. You are calling everyone who believes Romans 8 a liar. You can change it to confidence but the scripture says "Hope". All the other versions use "Hope" also, I think. Everyone but you.

Rom 8:24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Children of God who live by Romans 8 has been around a lot longer than you have. You just came trotting along here in the last few years and now "know" more that all those who went before you.

1Cr 8:2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

You need to speak for yourself more, and quit trying to speak for others for we will all give an account for ourselves. All the hateful words you use, will be answered for.

Try studying a little bit more and see where the Greek tells us that hope that is seen is not the hope we stand firm upon/ confidence.

Please stop with your foul remarks.

I haven't used ONE hateful word. you're judging my person, yet you say you don't judge any man's person.

The Security of the Believer is anchored in Romans 8, you simply haven't studied this out very well, or you wouldn't have said i make anyone who believes that passage a "liar".

 

[Brother Bob]

It was you who called people liars.

I don't seem to be able to carry on a debate with you for you haven't given an answer for Romans 8, but just use your own words. I don't use the scriptures that way.