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Featured Can you prove by Scripture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Oct 3, 2021.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You have it backward.
    No grace...no faith. This is Godward.

    Your position, no faith...no grace, is man-centered.

    Answer specifically. Who gives faith?

    If God is the author of faith (Hebrews 12:2) then faith must come after grace. If man is the author of innate faith that he evokes, then grace does not exist at all. This concept of faith is works based through the effort of a man. Grace is nullified if faith comes before grace.
     
    #81 AustinC, Oct 7, 2021
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarity, God's grace precedes the faith. And the faith precedes the salvation. And where a promise is with faith and a work, asking Romans 10:13, confession Romans 10:9 or believer's immersion Mark 16:16, the faith precedes the work which precedes the salvation. Agreed? The faith being the requirement not the works of the promise.
     
    #82 37818, Oct 7, 2021
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  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Lord has everything to do with Salvation. He just doesn't save someone against there will. He does not make someone believe. He convinces them of Him self through His Word. He does not save them with out them believing in Him. No where in scripture is it ever demonstrated that He saves us before faith

    I believe in the Bible and what is says. Not what men imagine. The Bible says specifically to believe and we will be saved. Not maybe if you are elect. Election has nothing to do with Salvation. Claiming to be a Jew is serious John wrote this about those who make such false claims
    .
    Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    MB
     
    #83 MB, Oct 7, 2021
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Where does scripture say grace comes first? You believe in works but romans says.

    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    No works needed, just believing in Christ is enough.
    MB
     
    #84 MB, Oct 7, 2021
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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not true at all. Saving Grace comes after faith, Faith has to be first because Grace comes through faith eph 2:8
    MB
     
    #85 MB, Oct 7, 2021
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Not only is Grace nullified Jesus Christ is NOT Glorified... Man is!... Don't you know the LORD "ALWAYS " beats the preacher to the creature!... Brother Glen:)

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
     
    #86 tyndale1946, Oct 7, 2021
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    MB,

    Do you realize that what you posted concerning belief is what the typical Calvinist would also teach?

    No person is saved except by faith, and that salvation through the gift of faith is eternal life.

    You are also correct concerning the claims of Jewish heritage, but what the difference is that those in the early church would claim some special endowment or understanding because of the association of being Jewish..

    However, according to Romans 11, those redeemed that are not of Jewish heritage, are “grafted in with the same rights and privileges of Jewish believers, with no hierarchy, for there is a single Instructor High Priest (now the Holy Spirit) as the Lord stated in Matthew.
    8But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.​
     
    #87 agedman, Oct 7, 2021
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I am assuming that perhaps you do not know that the grace is defined as “the unmerited favor of God.”

    Therefore, as you posted concerning Ephesians 2:8:
    For it is by grace (the unmerited favor of God) you have been saved through faith (implanted by hearing the Word of God, Romans) and this (faith, for it was implanted upon the hearing granted by God) is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Note parentheses are added for definition and understanding - not to be taken as adding to the Word of God!)
    ​
    The “this” is directly connected to faith, not grace, for then such favor from God would make the gift of faith even more restrictive.

    Some theologians place the gift is both the unmerited fave and the faith. I suppose that it could be true, but in my own study, I have found it sufficiently sound that the gift refers to the preceding object - faith.
     
    #88 agedman, Oct 7, 2021
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That, my friend, is an interpertation that there being a gift from God to believe in. Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.
    Yes.
    There is a purpose for God giving a few promises with a work between the necessary faith and the gift, which does not require the work. To silence those who would deny the faith is prior to the salvation, Romans 10:13-15.
     
    #89 37818, Oct 7, 2021
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The neat part of Romans 10 is it gives a reversed timeline in questions.

    14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed?
    And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard?
    And how can they hear without someone to preach?
    And how can they preach unless they are sent?

    As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
    But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
    ​
    Should Godly faith be innately within each human, then why would faith need to come? Surely would merely need to acknowledge, or be enhanced.

    But then faith isn’t from human extraction for the Scripture states that:
    3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.​
     
    #90 agedman, Oct 7, 2021
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #91 37818, Oct 7, 2021
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  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Oh I realize that Calvinism is a imposter they mix a little truth with false doctrines.in the hope others will buy in to it

    Faith is not the gift. Eternal life is the gift.There is only one kind of faith. There is no special gift of faith we all have been dealt a measure of faith and this faith can grow by hearing the word of God. Faith is nothing more than simply hoping Christ will save us.
    .
    This is what Calvinist do when they claim election for them selves. By doing this they are claiming to be Jewish For special treatment
    The truth is they are not elect as is the Jew. The true Jew does have special treatment but what is that to you? The Jews were elected out of all the tribes of the world, because they were the least of all people.
    Being chosen is for purposes of service. This does not make you elect..

    So how does that make you elect. It makes you the same only for Salvation and service. It does not make you a Jew.The Jew special because they were elected. They were elected to be the people God would send us His Son through. Like it or not the Jew is special.

    Pay particular attention to these verses. We have only one teacher. Mr Edwards is not a teacher of men. By claiming so means he is attempting to replace Jesus. This is the same for all who claim to be teachers. All they are at the very most are those whom God sometimes speaks through. They should not gain respect as teachers. especially to be looked up to as if they are holy.
    MB
     
    #92 MB, Oct 8, 2021
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I'm not convinced that faith is the gift, The reason is we are all dealt a measure of faith to begin with. Faith is increased by hearing the word of God
    The disciples asked Jesus to increase there faith. Notice what the Lord does.
    Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
    Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
    Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
    Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?

    The Lord did increase there Faith by giving them more of the word of God.You see we can only increase faith by hearing God's word we already have faith with in us.It was part of our creation.
    MB
     
    #93 MB, Oct 8, 2021
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me but it isn't faith I believe in it is Jesus Christ the one and only messiah I believe in. Did you drink enough coffee this morning because what you said seems as though you are still asleep..
    MB
     
    #94 MB, Oct 8, 2021
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You believe in Him due to the Lord Himself granted saving faith to you!
     
    #95 Yeshua1, Oct 8, 2021
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Wrong I believe in Him because of hearing His great and marvelous word.
    MB
     
    #96 MB, Oct 8, 2021
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Our faith does not cause our salvation. But whom we place our faith in who saves and keeps us. John 10:28.
     
    #97 37818, Oct 8, 2021
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Even though you while dead in your sins could only reject that heard?
     
    #98 Yeshua1, Oct 8, 2021
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not true let alone you have no proof of that. Your reference to romans 3:10 -20 is not about the lost it's about the saved and the statement was original to a fool. He also said there is no God. Would you really believe a fool? The fool says this in his heart about the saved. How do I know that? I know because I thought the same thing as the fool before I was saved.
    Ps 14
    MB
     
    #99 MB, Oct 8, 2021
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul and isaiah both stated ALL of us are like sheep gone astray, as NONE seek God, correct?
     
    #100 Yeshua1, Oct 8, 2021
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