Cause and Effect/Conditions of Salvation

Salvation for starters.:thumbs: Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Your misunderstanding of these verses--which many posters have already explained to you--is due to your neo-orthodox approach to the Word of God. You redefine words according to your own whim and will instead of taking them at face value or in their context. A simple word "free gift," and you can't even define it. Amazing.

I ask again: Give an example of a free gift that has conditions attached to it. This is at least the third time. You have failed each time.

 

When St. Paul was on the way to Rome via a ship (Acts 27:1), when he was told by an angel the Lord had granted the lives of those on board with him. What happened when those people began to abandon ship? St. Paul warned that there was a condition to saving their lives: "Except these remain in the ship, you cannot be saved” (Acts 27:31). Isn't this an example of a gift that is conditional?

 

No, Paul is speaking of physical salvation. If I go out swimming and get out over my head, I have to work to get back. If I don't swim (work) I will drown. This is not a picture of salvation.
Salvation is when the swimmer has gone out over his head and is drowning and cannot make it to shore. He is literally drowning with no way to save himself. Then one comes who is stronger than he, plucks him out of the water, saves him, puts him on solid ground where he is safe, and further more cares for him and gives him much more that he doesn't even deserve--all free of charge. That is what my Savior did for me. No conditions attached.

 

Is this your attempt at exegesis to prove your conjecture?

You failed. All you gave was more conjecture rhetoric. You did not show how anything you presented is proved by scripture.

You have the person perservering and leaving Christ at the same time. Try again.

For some odd reason you posted Trench as though he somehow supports your view. He said nothing about the Christian leaving Christ unto eternal damnation.

It simply does not exist in the text.

:godisgood:

 

I trust you have looked more closely now at Rev 2 and agree that to use verse 4 as an example of a Christian who has left Jesus in the sense of returning to their unborn spiritual state would be wrong.

Do you have another passage in mind that would address my question?

How can one who is created in Jesus Christ able to leave themselves?

:jesus:

 

HP: You bring up one of the clearest Scriptural examples of a conditional gift outside of salvation itself. Lead on. :thumbs:

 

I notice that your solution to every difficulty is to ignore the details in the response and simply claim that you need someone to explain the post to you.

That is fine. I am happy to let the objective unbiased readers "notice the highlighted text" details that refute your "I see nothing" responses and you are free to see nothing as you wish.

Hint the saved condition is not that of being under condemnation of Christ and having the lampstand removed - so as to be in the same darkened condition as the rest of the world.

All is good.

in Christ,

Bob

 

22But now I urge you to keep up your courage, because not one of you will be lost; only the ship will be destroyed. 23Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me 24and said, 'Do not be afraid, Paul. You must stand trial before Caesar; and God has graciously given you the lives of all who sail with you.' 25So keep up your courage, men, for I have faith in God that it will happen just as he told me. 26Nevertheless, we must run aground on some island."

THUS God needed to save Paul and the ship. Saving the rest . . . an unintended consequence. Reformed believers would say this is an example of common grace, "the rain falling on the just and the unjust."

Maybe all you "Paulites" (hyper dispensationists) will be saved as an unintended consequence of ceding Paul authority over Jesus. <G>

 

Was there a "free gift" in that example. Please demonstrate.

 

You have not shown that the "candlestick" is salvation. You simply saying it is does not count for exegesis.

So yes, you have shown nothing to support your claim that this passage is about an individual Christian leaving Jesus unto condemnation.

One does not even need to be an objective unbiased reader to see you have not proved your claims. My fifth and sixth graders can see as much.

:jesus:

 

DHK, saving their life was a gift, just as healing Naaman was his gift from God. They could not nor did not do anything to merit their delivery, but God gifted them with delivery. The only thing God required as a condition of their safe delivery was for them to voluntarily form an intent to be obedient, in this case simply abide in the ship until they were instructed to leave it. God was clear. Disobey and they could not be saved. Fulfilling the simple condition of obedience in abiding in the ship and they would receive their gift of safety.

 

There was no gift involved. Leave God out of the picture. The same thing would have happened. What happened is that God told Paul what would happen. Paul had the gift of prophecy. He knew what would happen. He was simply giving instructions. There is no gift at all here.

If I am an arsonist and I light a fire in the midst of a house, knowing exactly how long it will spread, and how long it will take to get to the water heater which will cause a deadly explosion, I can start it. Then I can go to a couple of unsuspecting children and tell them do as I say or you will perish. If you don't follow my instruction you cannot be saved. My words will be true. They can only be saved (physically) if they follow my instructions, otherwise they will be killed in that explosion once that fire reaches the water heater.

The same was true with Paul. They had to follow his instructions in order to avoid physical death. It was a matter of life or death. There is no gift here. It is a flawed illustration.

In a company my son worked in, if you didn't follow the instructions you were liable to lose your hand, an arm, or perhaps your life (a machine shop). Follow the safety instructions or you may lose your life. This is just common sense. It has nothing to do with a gift.

 

That is a good illustration of how salvation works.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well I did give that "hint" above -- and in your objection you provide no Bible evidence at all that being under Christ's condemnation is "a kind of Gospel".

I also show the statement from Bible commentaries where the result of actual Christians in Ephesus was seen to dwindle to next-to-nill.

Thus the Eph 2 was a warning of future dire consequences that do not show anything like "glorious salvation and full acceptance by Christ" as you may have at first imagined.

Since you provide no evidence at all (on the other hand) for your own position, the ball is still in your court.

"Pretending not to notice" the hints and details contained in the posts as you do - is not a compelling form of debate as it turns out.

You claim that you are not an objective unbiased reader in your post - that is a "given".:laugh:

in Christ,

Bob

 

There is no condemnation (hell) spoken of in the text. So again, conjecture is not exegesis.

And the commentary said nothing about condemnation (hell), this is your conjecture.

So you add your own conjecture and then say "see". Exegesis does not work that way.

We read nothing of salvation nor of condemnation in the text. Who has the imagination here?

So you point to a text to show a Christian leaving Jesus unto condemnation of hell and then you think I should provide the exgesis to prove you wrong?

Your the one who entered into this debate boasting of Rev 2 condemning Christians to hell. I asked you to prove it through exegesis which you cannot. So now you want me to do the exegesis.

The only thing I noticed was your conjectures. You have failed to show salvation or condemnation revealed in the text.

As it turns out, conjecture is not a compelling form of exgesis.

1) the text says nothing about salvation, saved, born of God, regenerated.
2) the text says nothing about condemnation unto hell

Here is a true factual "hint" for you; a candlestick is not a candle, it holds the candle. Do a little research through the scriptures and you will find this obvious truth.

See how I use biblical facts and avoid conjecture? I let the text say only what it actually says. I need not twist, reword or interject anything in order to support my position. I have mountains of text that speak of the believers eternal security in Christ. Conjecture would only make me look like I didn't take the time to study.

Nowhere in scripture will you find the candlestick representing salvation. If you can, show me where, it cannot be just because you say so. Otherwise, admit your error and abandon this text as a loss of salvation passage. It is an impossible battle ground for you to win.

Since you do not want to properly exgesis this verse in question I will help the board out so as not to allow your conjectures to lead anyone astray on this point.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Do we see what a candlestick is? We are told from the scripture itself (no conjecture) that it represents a "church" (not an individual person within a church).

Then we move on to the seven letters to the seven churches.

Rev 2:1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

See how there are "seven" candlesticks? Not millions or billions, "seven". Are we to believe that there are only seven saved individuals living at the time of this writing? I should think not.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;

Do works save a person?


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Obviously this is not about individual salvation for works do not save.

.......or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

What then is the "candlestick" threated to be removed? The scripture already told us, it is the "church" (Rev 1:20). Nothing to do with salvation.

What are the "first works" that are to be done else the church/candlestick be removed? The scripture plainly tells us (no conjecture btw) thou hast left thy first love........repent, and do the first works" .

It is the "first works of love" that are being neglected and a church that does not love as Christ loved will not grow by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus will not be filling it with disciples, rather He will remove it as a "church" so it will not be an effectually bad influence for the name of Christ.

There it is. No conjectures, no individual eternal security spoken of, no condemnation to hell spoken of, only pure bible interpreting bible.

:jesus:

 

HP: Go tell that to God and see what He has to say about that. :rolleyes:

 

I don't have to. God already knows the difference between physical salvation and spiritual salvation. How come you can't figure such simple things out?

 

It is not a good illustration of salvation at all. Salvation is when you have no hope of being saved until someone comes and draws you out of the water wherein you are drowning. That is what Christ did. He reached down and drew me out of the sea of sinfulness and set me on the solid rock and gave me eternal life.

Christ never came and gave me an instruction book and told me that if I follow these directions then I can be saved. That is what you are advocating (just like all other world religions and cults), and that is heresy.

 

DHK, you paint as clear a picture of Calvinistic 'irresistable grace,' limited atonement, and double predestination as any Calvinist I have ever spoken to, and I have indeed spoken to many. Eliminating absolutely all conditions to salvation does absolutely nothing to separate your views from any run of the mil Calvinist on these issues. The very heart and soul of Calvinism is total depravity and 'no conditions.' That is the only system of theology I know of that eliminates any and all conditions. Does that honestly surprise you?