Causing Men to Lust

I'm not trying to kid anyone. I'm pointing out the truth that we can be free of lust.

To take care of their body and to bring glory to God with the beauty they have been given. There's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves. I'm NOT talking about plastic surgery or massive amounts of makeup, so don't bother trying to make me sound like I'm taking that position.

I'm sure you have a specific image in mind, but I don't have access to it so I can't comment on your mental picture. But yes, I think there are many things we need to consider when deciding what to wear. Depending on one's build, a slit skirt may be helpful for walking and also still be modest, while for others it would be terribly immodest.

I don't think we can make blanket rules for everyone. What is modest for many women would not necessary be modest on my wife, and vice versa.

Nope, it's about lust. Check the title of the sermon in the original post. Immodest clothing on women is simply what is being blamed for the lustful behavior of men.

 

It's possible to preach a biblical sermon on this without being graphic.

And a family "come to Jesus" meeting with a wayward child is entirely different than addressing the issue--which IS important and relevant--in such a crass manner.

A wise pastor knows that we must speak the truth. In love. Can't leave out half.

Heck...I'm just a wise guy...but I've even figured out that sometimes God has me "condense" what I say: The truth can't be compromised, but how we choose to deliver it can itself be a stumbling block.

OK, enough of that: Back to the fighting. I was going to say something about Scarlett having too much makeup, but I haven't got the rolling pin indentions out from the last "comment" I made...

 

Dear Lord, let that be the case...

 

Nope. Lust is an expression of the state of one's heart, not something that comes from outside stimuli. Jesus is exceptionally clear about this on numerous occasions:

And [Jesus] was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

"All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mark 7:20-23)

Men seeking to live a godly life and who have not been deceived by the false doctrine that claims that sin comes from external stimuli will find they can gain enormous mastery over the sin of lust. They will only fall into lust if they allow themselves to do so.

This dear pastor may be sincerely deceived, but he is deceived nonetheless. And worse yet, he is spreading the deception.

How can I be justified in saying that? Jesus clearly teaches something very different. I have to go with Jesus, not the good intentions of a pastor.

Yes, but sometimes people are just deceived. There's no reason to assume that those who disagree with our understanding are in direct rebellion against God. All that does is give us a convenient excuse to ignore what other people are saying so we can smugly avoid being convicted of error.

 

How would you feel if I stood in front of your congregation and spoke in detail about the male physique and how they look to women in the tight fitting jeans they wear? Why is this always aimed at women?

No. You won't find that the bible commands men and women to separate because of "a message", but you will find that women are to minister to other women in these matters. It is not the pastors job to publically humiliate the entire female portion of his congregation. This should have been handled privately, woman to woman.

 

Well, I have never been with my wife on one of her doctor appointments. So, I do not know what words her doctor uses.

When my wife was in college, she attended a class called Manners for Young Women. This was in the early 1970s. She told me they discussed modest apparel in detail in her classes. I did not attend the class (I did not even go to the same university), so I do not know exactly what words were used to discuss body parts.

What is a Pastor? Is he above speaking about any topic. I think not. In my opinion, a Pastor is our Patriarch, our Elder, our Priest, or whatever term you choose to use. As such, he is supposed to be knowledgeable about a lot of topics and how to communicate scripture on those topics. Some topics require frankness. I do not think we should be embarrassed by how our pastor communicates what he believes is the word of God.

I do not think "mortification" is the correct word to use, unless one of the women died during the sermon. By the way, I am 61 and I remember my mother using the word "mortified" quite a lot. She is 91 and has not been mortified yet.

To sum up my reply on question No. 1, I think it is the Pastor's responsibility to deliver the message that God laid on his heart and mind to deliver. To do anything less, would suggest he was not following God's will. In this case, delivering the message as he did (in a church where he pastored for forty years, 20 miles from New York City), in the way he did--I am confident he did what God told him to do. Maybe the church had tried older women approaching some of the women showing up in immodest apparel? But, after listening to a couple of sermons on his sermonaudio website, I think he did what needed to be done, and the women dressing in immodest apparel either changed clothes or did not come back.

One more thought on the Pastor, he delivered the sermon so well, I would not be surprised if he had not delivered it before. Like next Sunday is immodest apparel Sunday, like tithing Sunday, and such. Just a thought. This whole thing is new to me. I am giving you my honest opinion, which I guess disagrees with yours.

Scarlett O...

I have to watch what I say on this answer because I have already been incorrectly accused by another member for an earlier comment. Here goes.

Boys and girls learn about sex in different ways, at different times in their growing up, and use a different vocabulary. Nothing I heard in the sermon was a shock or surprise to me. I am a father of two grown boys. A shock to their mother--well, that is a different story, altogether.

I can assure you the boys in the congregation certainly listened to the sermon. And if they did not know what this and that was about, they would soon find out. Which is not a bad thing. The church should take on sex education as an issue, if the church is to minister to the whole child.

Boys and men should hear what the girls and women hear. I used to have some friends who taught in public school and they told me both genders heard it all, everything, in the same classroom. Now, one of my sons attended a Christian school. And he and I (by requirement) heard it all in a boy-dad class, while a similar lesson (we were told) was heard in a girl-mom class.

I hope I have answered your second question.

...Bob

 

I can see we are far apart on this issue. So be it.

During my business career, I did an assignment for a convenience store chain with 600 stores in six states. The assignment was to develop an employee handbook. Four pages of illustrations (and slides in training class) were devoted to appropriate dress of employees on duty. We ended up showing the correct and incorrect method of dressing for the shift. The correct method was something similar to the illustration of the Messianic Jew illustration I inserted in an earlier post. Here it is again for your benefit.





Modest Apparel for Messianic Jewish girls and women

Feelin' Feminine (weblog)
What Is Feminine: Extreme Standards

Here are some authors appearing in the weblog.

Miss Jamie is just an every day girl living a simple but amazing life as a daughter and Princess of the Heavenly Father! He is everything and she is nothing without Him! She is an oldest daughter, a homemaker in training, a home school student (High school!), a pianist, and an aspiring author! You can read her blog From the Inside Out where she expresses her my musings on modesty and inner beauty and more!

Miss Sonja is a Bible-believing, skirt-wearin', headcovering, camera-toting, bread-baking, homemaker-in-training. She's been redeemed by the grace of YHVH and His son Yeshua. You can usually find her at Girlish Musings blog.

Jocelyn Tzahala is a 19-year-old young woman with a passion for writing truth. She blogs at A Pondering Heart, graphic designs at APH Boutique where she helps support Gleaning the Harvest families. You see her face a lot on this site, don't you? That is because this is the face of a the founder and publisher of Feelin' Feminine.













Each month we publish an online magazine for ladies, in which we hope to offer more inspirational and challenging articles surrounding the topics of femininity and being set-apart. You can find all issues, including the current issue, by clicking on the image above or see current issue here.
​

If modest apparel is an issue in the Baptist church, I see nothing wrong with doing what the Messianic Jewish clothing stores do.

. . .

The title of the Pastor Martin's sermon was "Ladies, Does How You Dress Cause Men to Lust?" He served the same church for over 40 years. He has posted 615 sermons at sermonaudio. Here is his biography.

For over forty years, Pastor Albert N. Martin faithfully served the Lord and His people as an elder of Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, New Jersey. Due to increasing and persistent health problems, he stepped down as one of their pastors, and in June, 2008, Pastor Martin and his wife, Dorothy, relocated to Michigan, where they are seeking the Lord's will regarding future ministry.​

. . .

That is all I have to say tonight.

...Bob

 

That's because you are focused on women's clothing as being the problem instead of the lustful hearts of men. The title of the thread is about lust and you keep obsessing over the way women's bodies should be covered...

So you required hair to be over the shoulder? It couldn't be shorter?

In any case, there is something different at play when you are putting together a dress code for a business. You are not only setting a standard for what is appropriate in a business environment, but you are also "branding" the employees so that customers will know who works at the store and will be able to spot them.

I too work in secular business and am subject to a dress code and have, in previous employment, held people to a dress code. In fact, I have terminated employees who habitually and intentionally violated the dress code.

Furthermore, I have worked for a private school and have seen what creative teenaged girls can do to turn even the dowdiest of uniforms into something approximating a cocktail dress... so, I'm not naive about these issues.

So you're fine with setting up an arbitrary dress code for men and women which turns the the real spiritual issue of lust in the heart into a matter of measuring skirt lengths and styles of dress?

In my opinion, that's really missing the point.

The real answer to the question raised by the sermon is "No."

Lust comes from the heart, just like the scripture you quote in your signature teaches.
Why is this so difficult for you and others to acknowledge?

 

I just thought I would pop up my signature so everyone can see that it does not contain the word "Lust" as you stated above.

Peace, brother.

...Bob

 

Let me reiterate what I stated in an earlier post. Eventhough I did not listen to the sermon being debated, I do know this. This is a topic that SHOULD NEVER BE SPOKEN in an ordianry church service!! This is a topic that should be given out during a men's OR women's meeting, but never when both are present!! If I was a woman, I would feel very uncomfortable hearing this coming from my pastor's lips!!

I am not meaning this in a literal manner, but how do we know what the motive of our pastors are at all times? I am not accusing this pastor of bad intentions, but not everyone with the title "pastor" is God called, nor is he even saved!! Satan has as many preachers(if not more than) God has.

I am with the lovely women here on BB on this one!! I think this pastor overstepped his bounds/authority on this one fellas!

I have been in church before, and the women with miniskirts would set up in the front row. The pastor of that church should have addressed this matter in private, so as to not embarrass them in public(as far as I know, it has never been addressed, but I am not privy to that info, anyways, so who knows??). Never, and I MEAN NEVER, should a pastor call anyone out in public!! There is a way to do this in private, so as to not cause a scene!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

kinda like somebody trying to quit smoking and getting on a public vehicle back in the 70's and everybody around him puffing away ?
kinda like somebody who isn't trying to quit smoking and gets on a vehicle back in the 70's needing a light and nobody is puffing away ?

or successfully not smoking for a week, and for some reason everything he sees or hears reminds him of tobacco ? A whiff of tobacco from that lady's hair ? The Marlboro man on a billboard newly set up along his route ? Young people saying "cool, man" every other sentence ?

I know what you mean, Amy.G, but I did quit, nevertheless.
Been tobacco-free for the last so many decades, except for a few slips here and there, which I've had none for the past ten years.

 

Al is from New Jersey ....go watch some of the NJ cable programs.....The Jersey Shore program with Snookey & tell me after viewing that trash if the Reverand Martin doesnt have a point to make. Honestly, you sound like you live in a box. You need to get out more. Martin knows what he is talking about.:laugh:

 

You speak blasphemy when you speak in that manner about Al Martin. This man has devoted over 40 years of his life to Building & growing a very strong & God driven church in New Jersey....just google the man & you will see all that he has accomplished in his life tirelessly for the cause of Christ.

 

What you say may be true, but it does not mean he cannot make a mistake. I did not and do not have time to listen to the sermon. Did he speak to the men about their attitudes toward women? Or does he assume that men have no control over their lust?

More often than not it is not what is exposed that causes lust, it is what is covered and left to the imagination.

 

Pastor Martin is saying what needs to be said & Im certain the women of that church understood him & were not embarrassed. They hold the distinction as being one of the top Reformed Baptist Churches in the state of NJ. Now if you dont have time to sit & listen to it, you really shouldn't comment on it.

 

Actually Freeatlast, the only one in my family concerned by that message is my 19 year old son who after the sermon said to me, but dad I like when women dress like that....LOL. Whats that tell you? :laugh: