Amen, Matt! I've talked with a feww charismatics of late, and some of the Scriptures they use as their "license" are just yonder side of ridiculous! (I just wish I could remember them all)
One was that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was instituted by none other than John the Baptist! It was explained to me that when Jesus came to be baptized, when John said that he needed to be baptized by Jesus, that he was asking to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit! Hokay?
I agree that the whole pentecostal/charismatic movement is in need of a theology, and , IMHO, a good dose of old-fashioned Christianity.
Oh, and the charismatics that I talked with are not part of the fringe, they are part of the Church of God, Cleveland, TN. Maybe you've heard of their college...Lee University?
In CHrist,
Trotter
Charismatics
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Trotter, Aug 17, 2003.
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You know, it's funny. These people want to claim that the Bible upholds all of the things that they practice, but then they don't want their people to study the Bible for what it says unless they are there to "filter" it for them.
By taking a handful of instances from Acts, "tongues" becomes a "Biblically mandated doctrine". By taking a couple of mentionings, "healings" becomes a side-show spectacle.
True exegesis would clear a lot of these things up.
In Christ,
Trotter -
Interesting that a large number of Biblical Scholars, One I know is from Fuller Theological Seminary are Charasmatic and grounded in the word in the same manner as any other mainstream academic.
Yet people go on and on sledging the Charasmatics, yet nobody ever wants to answer the question of why it is the Charasmatics that are out there doing the work of getting people saved, as per the final instructions of Jesus Christ to the church.
Think carefully about that, how "Christian" is it to spend your time throwing stones at other groups that are out there spreading the Gospel. And it has been proved over and over here that Cessationism is not a doctrine accepted by a number of Baptist Churches. -
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I worked for a couple of Charismatics for two years. On Sunday they were feeling great. But watch out on Monday. They were always down.
Sometimes some of the stuff they would come home with was so crazy. One time they told me that the preacher told the congregation that all of the leaders in the Bible were wealthy. I told them, "Where does that put Paul?" He made tents for a living to support himself. They didn't like that too well. What some people will believe!
Their preacher is regularly on TBN. -
A circus always draws a big crowd, no matter how skinny the elephants or mangy the tiger.
It is easy to "float along" when you have been "primed" with praise choruses and driving rhythyms. Go to any heavy metal rock concert, and you will see the same results.
Charismatic doctrine (or lack thereof) is, at best, shoddy exegesis. Most of what I have heard is mainly isogesis. Ignored are the conditions of the writer, condition of the readers, the time of the writing, the location of the writer and readers, the reasons for the writing, the situation of the time and place of the intended audience, and a host of other factors. Usually, what is done is this: turn to Acts 2, apostles received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, we must receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.
I realize that I am being rahter bulldog-ish on this, but I cannot stand idly by and see such drivel being spoonfed to people who have no spiritual discernment whatsoever, much less a solid foundation of God's word.
In Christ,
Trotter -
2Tim.4:
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
It has been proved over and over again that not all Baptists accept pre-millennialism; some are post-millennial. That doesn't mean pre-millenniallism is wrong.
It has been proved over and over again that not all Baptists accept Cessationism; some do not. That does not mean cessationism is wrong.
It has been proved over and over again that not all Baptists accept a literal Creation. Some believe the Gap Theory. That doesn't mean a literal seven day creation is wrong.
What is wrong is your logic. Not all Baptists are going to agree on a number of issues. There is a doctrine that almost all Baptists will agree on--it is called soul liberty--the right to disagree.
DHK -
You spoke of evangelism as if they are the only one's doing it. Churches don't grow by sitting still and doing nothing. It is by getting the gospel out.
It is not by the elect sitting in their holy huddle. Jesus commanded His disciples to make more disciples. He did not say invent another program.
At one time in a place where I lived My neighbors were charismatics and the children had never won anybody to Christ. In fact one of the daughters got involved with Mormonism. All of the children were home schooled.
Its not about the name. Its about obedience. I'd rather walk with a charismatic that is trying to be obedient than one who has perfect doctrine except obedience.
I just don't happen to agree with their interpretation of scripture. -
The heretic Dr. C. Peter Wagner is a former 30 year professor of Fuller Theological Seminary. His is the Charismatic “New Apostolic Reformation” movement; this Holy Roller is W-A-Y O-U-T there. I set across from I guy at work who’s church is in with this nutty group. He has told me that his preacher is an Apostle for the greater Detroit area. Well he is not my Apostle, and I asked how he got to be an Apostle. He said he did not know (I guess the Lord told him he was one). But from what I have read of this cult they got Vertical Apostles, Horizontal Apostles, Hyphenated Apostles and Prophets ect… this group is way out there on other issues too.
Your friend Omega -
Another thing that I notice is that we are putting "Charasmatics" in one basket. How many different denominations are "Charasmatic"? Quite a few, Some of them who also call themselves Baptist.
Making Comments about "Charasmatics" is like accusing an IFB for something that the SBC are into.
How about specifying a denomiation with the Charasmatic group for scrutiny?
How about we start with the Pentecostal Freewill Baptists?
http://www.pfwb.org/main.htm -
Pentecostalism and Baptist are mutually exclusive, one from another. You are either pentecostal or Baptist--not both. Judging by their statement of faith, this church is definitely not Baptist. You can put the name Baptist in your church and be Jehovah's Witness. It won't make you a Baptist, just a wolf in sheep's clothing. That is what this church is. It remains Pentecostal to this day. Baptists do not believe:
--healing is in the atonement.
--speaking in tongues is evidence of baptism of the Spirit.
--We do not believe in the Catholic concept of sacraments.
It doesn't come close to a Baptist statement of faith, and has no right to call itself Baptist.
DHK -
I also checked out a little of their Website.
http://www.pfwb.org/faith-and-practices.html
Your friend Omega -
When we try and interpret scripture correctly we will have to deal with the same thing Jesus did. Not many will like us because they cannot put us in a camp. The only camp we are in is not at all popular but it is the same one Jesus was in. Jesus always pointed back at what God wanted from the beginning. It is not about being conservative or liberal it is about serving God out of a right theology. A proper theology perseveres and leads to the right God. But an improper one leads people astray. -
How many baskets does it take to hold pentecostals/charismatics?
Originaly, I asked what charismatic teachings had everyone ran into, and how had they responded (taught their people).
I do not have a problem with debating the beliefs of pentecostals/charismatics. The things that they spout are just as devoid of spiritual truth as the Methodist belief of "holiness" (living above sin), or the Mormon belief of "pre-creation" (that everyone is a biological offspring of God and His wifes, who chooses to be born on this earth). Just because some one can rip out a few verses to "prove their point", does not make it a Biblical truth.
Many people are flocking to pentecostal/charismatic churches. As I said before, a circus always draws a crowd. Only time and trial will tell just how many are receiving true salvation in these carnivals....But, oh, I forgot, when they fall away, it is because their faith wasn't strong enough. How silly of me!
In Christ,
Trotter
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