Christians' addicted need our help

[AF Guy N Paradise]

Here is Reformer's Unanimous (RU) website below:

http://www.reformu.com/enter.htm

This program will work if one is willing to go through the hard work needed. There is lots of Bible reading, memorizing verses, etc.....

I am a counselor at my church. The main headquarters located at Rockford, Illinois has one of our R/U students living in their appartments for the next 6 months or so.

With God, anything is possible. Stay in His Word and listen to Him, and stay obedient and the strongholds will start to go away. It does take a lot of hard work.

Aloha.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
[snip]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I got angry with my wife when she let us run out of coffee. However, I recovered from it. I’m not angry now.

Don't you mean you called your anger sin, confessed it and repented of it instead of recovering from it? </font>[/QUOTE]Wait a minute! Are you being serious or joking? I don’t joke about repentance and confession—too serious. However, I do spoof myself quite a bit. I was joking about being angry with my wife. Also, I was making play on words with recovery—trying to be punny, an amalgamation of pun and funny.

I’m cool.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> BTW, I thought you were part of the non-judgmental crowd. Then, why are you judging me?

I try to be non-judgmental, but it's hard when you are judging all the things we are trying to do to help people. </font>[/QUOTE]Really sounds a lot like an excuse to me. That’s my problem for the recovery business, they make excuse for sin.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It’s alright to judge your enemies—huh?

I don't know. I don't have any known enemies (not even you). </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, there’s nothing wrong with having enemies! Christ just said that we must love them (i.e. put their interests and welfare on the same level as our own, even to our detriment). David, a man after God’s own heart, had lots of enemies. I don’t know where people get this theology of it being wrong to have enemies. Can you tell me where it’s found in Scripture? Paul said that some were enemies of the cross of Christ (Philippians 3:18). We were alienated and enemies of God before salvation (Romans 5:10). And Christ has enemies (1 Corinthians 15:25). So, I don’t apologize for my enemies but I do try to love them.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by AF Guy N Paradise:
Here is Reformer's Unanimous (RU) website below:

http://www.reformu.com/enter.htm

This program will work if one is willing to go through the hard work needed. There is lots of Bible reading, memorizing verses, etc.....

I am a counselor at my church. The main headquarters located at Rockford, Illinois has one of our R/U students living in their appartments for the next 6 months or so.

With God, anything is possible. Stay in His Word and listen to Him, and stay obedient and the strongholds will start to go away. It does take a lot of hard work.

Aloha.

Oh, yeah? Everything works! AA works. TM works. Yoga works. Chanting a mantra works. Taking a placebo works. Doing nothing works.

What is the hard work? What are your methods and techniques? Just how do you work on the desire for drugs or alchohol?

Do you have a problem with the underlying pagan (i.e. Jungian) psychology? How can you make Jungian psychology Biblical?

What training do your counselors have?

Why don't you just stick with the Bible and forget the 12-steps (i.e. RU)? What contribution do the 12-steps make to the program or is it God alone?

Thanks.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AF Guy N Paradise:
Here is Reformer's Unanimous (RU) website below:

http://www.reformu.com/enter.htm

This program will work if one is willing to go through the hard work needed. There is lots of Bible reading, memorizing verses, etc.....

I am a counselor at my church. The main headquarters located at Rockford, Illinois has one of our R/U students living in their appartments for the next 6 months or so.

With God, anything is possible. Stay in His Word and listen to Him, and stay obedient and the strongholds will start to go away. It does take a lot of hard work.

Aloha.

Oh, yeah? Everything works! AA works. TM works. Yoga works. Chanting a mantra works. Taking a placebo works. Doing nothing works.

What is the hard work? What are your methods and techniques? Just how do you work on the desire for drugs or alchohol?

Do you have a problem with the underlying pagan (i.e. Jungian) psychology? How can you make Jungian psychology Biblical?

What training do your counselors have?

Why don't you just stick with the Bible and forget the 12-steps (i.e. RU)? What contribution do the 12-steps make to the program or is it God alone?

Thanks. </font>[/QUOTE]Paidagogos, since you seem to be the expert, check out the RU website provided above and let us know what you think, both pros and cons.

By the way, I was stationed in Charleston before I came to Hawaii, let me guess that you are from the upstate area of SC?

1 Cor 13

Aloha

 

[Soulman]

Paid,
With all the good points you make, can't you see that you aren't offering real alternatives other than discreditintg what good people are trying to do to help?

Quote from Paidagogos: Oh, yeah? Everything works! AA works. TM works. Yoga works. Chanting a mantra works. Taking a placebo works. Doing nothing works.

Everything doesn't work. They all work for the flesh. Reformers Unanimous to answer another post, is KJVO because it was started by a man who is KJVO. Nothing wrong with that. KJV is the Word of God isn't it? Plug in your niv if you want.

R/U uses 10 principles. Godly principles. People are councilled biblically. When a person has a question in group it is answered using the bible. Unlike you Paid, we are not fluent in councilling. We are taught to use God's word. That is where the difference lies!

I went to Rockford Il. I went through their 4 day seminar. I know that doesn't sound like much, but we were given the tools to start. Our church was the largest growing R/U program in New England. I was the assistant director.

Say what you will, but people got saved and God got a hold of their hearts. Statistics? Who cares. Even if they mirror the worlds by the percentages that is ok. Because they didn't just quit drinking and drugging and go about their business. They got saved and that is what the others cannot offer.

I used to go to AA many years ago and saw their results. Nominal. I have seen the hand of God working miracles in the lives of those comming to r/u meetings.

Another dicipleship program? Yes! It is a bridge from the world to the church. Many addicts won't come to church for fear of people judging them. They will come to an addictions meeting. Yes, our goal is to get them saved. That is the only time God will help. If you aren't His He doesn't.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Soulman:
[QB] Paid,
With all the good points you make, can't you see that you aren't offering real alternatives other than discreditintg what good people are trying to do to help?[qb]

Oh, I do offer real alternatives. I advocate Biblical (nouthetic) counseling. Also, I mentioned the ministries where I served as well as other Biblical ministries.

Check out the following and let me know what you think:
http://www.fbcmlafayette.org/
http://www.nanc.org/

Here's where to get training online:
http://www.nouthetic.org/INS/intro.asp

 

[paidagogos]

For those who are not familiar with Biblical (nouthetic) counseling, Nouthetic Counseling begins with Biblical theology and develops all counseling and methods from Scripture whereas other so-called Christian programs begin with secular psychology and add Bible verses to the secular. Nouthetic Counseling is a Biblically based paradigm, not a secular psychological paradigm with Scripture thrown in.

 

[APuritanMindset]

paidagogos,

I have read through this thread, and I haven't seen you show anyone how the Bible backs your position. I've seen you plenty of times ask people for Scripture to back themselves, but all I've really seen you do is condemn those who don't do things your way.

Addictions are real. I agree with you that the root matter is sin. The only reason any of us transgress God's commands is because of sin inherent in all of us. Afterall,

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5 ESV)

Sin is the root cause. And I agree that the best way to end an addiction is to get the person saved. But what about when someone does drugs and their body becomes dependent on those drugs? Do we just save them and lock them in a room until withdrawl is over or do we work with them using tools that God has given us to help that person overcome their dependency on drugs and share the love of Jesus with them in a practical way?

Jesus didn't go around with an attitude of arrogance and self-righteousness saying to those He saw in sin, "May God damn you for you iniquity! You're not a drunkard, you're a filthy sinner and you need Me or you'll stay that way!" He did preach to the people, but He also got down on His knees and helped them. Jesus ate food with the sinners and tax collectors. He healed people. And if we really wanna follow Jesus' example, He healed people BEFORE they started truly following Him. They believed based on what He did in their lives a lot of times.

There were exceptions. The same is true for a 12 step program. Sometimes it won't work for an individual and a different approach is necessary.

My point is, just condemning people isn't going to solve any addictions or sin problems. God sent Jesus and proved that. Jesus didn't condemn, but He redeemed and He sent the church out to do the same thing.

Church councils weren't Biblical at the time and the church in Acts used those. God has given us tools, and we need to use what He's given us. Just because secular people thought it up doesn't automatically make it wrong.

You are now free to throw your rocks at me.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Good post APuritanMindset!

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:"
Acts 5:38 (emphasis mine)

People are not going to care what you say until they see how much you care...

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
paidagogos,

I have read through this thread, and I haven't seen you show anyone how the Bible backs your position. I've seen you plenty of times ask people for Scripture to back themselves, but all I've really seen you do is condemn those who don't do things your way.

[snip]
My point is, just condemning people isn't going to solve any addictions or sin problems. God sent Jesus and proved that. Jesus didn't condemn, but He redeemed and He sent the church out to do the same thing.

[snip]
You are now free to throw your rocks at me.

Whom have I condemned? There is a difference between condemning people and arguing against ideas. Don't you see the difference?

Evidently, these are well-intentioned and sincere folks. I have absolutely nothing against them. However, I would like to persuade them to give up a system based on 12-step (i.e. AA) philosophy and Jungian psychology and begin with the Bible alone. I am arguing against mixing the Bible with psychology. Personally, I believe in sufficiency of the Scriptures (2 Peter 1:3). I even recommended a Nouthetic Counseling approach. I wish some of them would take Donn Arm's courses over the Internet. I believe they would be better equipped to take a Biblical approach. In my posts, I have recommended books and websites. Has anyone followed up? Since I do have formal training in psychology, I consider it my Christian duty to help my brothers and sisters understand the insipid dangers of psychology. I don't condemn these people. I applaud their zeal but I wish it to include more knowledge.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SaggyWoman:
I didn't ask you if you were recovering from anything. I asked if you had been to a meeting.

Should I go to a bar tonight and get drunk so that I know how it feels to be drunk? Perhaps I ought to have an affair with another woman so that I can counsel people recovering from immorality. What do you think? </font>[/QUOTE]I did not say anything about being involved in sin to help work with those recovering from. . .you name it.

I just asked about your attendance at a Celebrate Recovery meeting because of your critical spirit of all recovery meetings.

 

[APuritanMindset]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by APuritanMindset:
paidagogos,

I have read through this thread, and I haven't seen you show anyone how the Bible backs your position. I've seen you plenty of times ask people for Scripture to back themselves, but all I've really seen you do is condemn those who don't do things your way.

[snip]
My point is, just condemning people isn't going to solve any addictions or sin problems. God sent Jesus and proved that. Jesus didn't condemn, but He redeemed and He sent the church out to do the same thing.

[snip]
You are now free to throw your rocks at me.

Whom have I condemned? There is a difference between condemning people and arguing against ideas. Don't you see the difference?

Evidently, these are well-intentioned and sincere folks. I have absolutely nothing against them. However, I would like to persuade them to give up a system based on 12-step (i.e. AA) philosophy and Jungian psychology and begin with the Bible alone. I am arguing against mixing the Bible with psychology. Personally, I believe in sufficiency of the Scriptures (2 Peter 1:3). I even recommended a Nouthetic Counseling approach. I wish some of them would take Donn Arm's courses over the Internet. I believe they would be better equipped to take a Biblical approach. In my posts, I have recommended books and websites. Has anyone followed up? Since I do have formal training in psychology, I consider it my Christian duty to help my brothers and sisters understand the insipid dangers of psychology. I don't condemn these people. I applaud their zeal but I wish it to include more knowledge. </font>[/QUOTE]I deffinitely don't doubt your intelligence, I just don't see you as putting that intelligence to good practice here on the board.

Scripture is suffecient. No one is denying that. But if we went JUST by the Bible, we'd not be doing a whole crud-load of the stuff we do in church. We'd not have the organ and piano going. We'd not have hymnals. We'd still be meeting in houses. We'd be speaking in tongues on occaision with proper interpretation rather than condemning those who do. The Christian community is steeped in tradition, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with some of it. And many traditions we've brought to the church are from secular ideas. Some of our best-loved hymns are written to old bar tunes. We preach from behind a lectern. We have electricity. Secular doesn't equal damnable.

And secular psychology isn't bad all the time. For an addiction, I think a 12 step program could be just what a particular individual needs. Who are we to deny people the very thing that may save their physical life?

Why are you against a 12 step program? Show me Scripture (not websites and book titles) that says a 12 step program is wrong.

 

[Soulman]

Paid,
I have said before and will say again that all council given at an R/U meeting is biblical. All questions are answered biblically. We know that we are not trained councillors and therefore do not claim to be. I have been saved for over 30 years and can provide some direction based on the nature of God and the scriptures. Isn't that what you have been saying? Regular 12 step programs do NOT have God. R/U acknowledges that the program will not and cannot work without God.

 

[av1611jim]

After thoroughly studying the web site of RU, I must admit that I can find no trace of the "12 Step" formula for stopping an addiction. The only thing I could find remotely similar is possibly the "Group Therapy" concept.
I light of this, I offer my apologies to any of you who are defending this program if I have offended you.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Thank you Jim for taking the time to research the RU site and thank you for being honest enough to share your thoughts on it.

I know it is working great at our church for the churched and unchurched alike...

Blessings,
§ue

 

[Christianbsw]

Hello everyone. As a social worker, I wish to contribute the following:
Emperical data helps to support the use of various helping methods. One of the primary reasons that "Christian methodology" is not applied as often in mainstream work with clients is due to the lack of supportive data that it works. As a social worker, I am trained to look at the background of the client and find what tools exist in their life to fuel recovery and undergird the person for the future. Christian faith can be a very strong and vital part of the emotional, spiritual, and physical support structure. Now, I know this from personal experience, but many of my colleagues do not. Thus, I have an obligation to keep and discern data that supports my supposition that Christian methodology works. So you may say that I am the one who cares about the data.
As a Christian, I have an obligation to share the word of God with my clients as led by the Holy Spirit. This does not happen with all clients, though it happens with many. In fact, He has opened the door for me with colleagues recently. God is so good to help us to see what He offers when we are receptive. He is faithful. Are we? With regard to various methodology, many have been found to offer productive opportunities for recovery. What I am not seeing here is the consideration of a cross application process. For example, AA can work to help stabilize individuals. We do have Christian recovering alcoholics (I being one of them). We equip the saints in the Church to support one another. We have a responsibility to mentor and train. We are to make desciples. We don't do that by just bringing someone to Christ, handing them a Bible, and then sending them out.
I believe we have some extremely intelligent people on this site...many of which have a great deal of experience in their fields. We owe it to eachother to learn about their methodologies and then validate or invalidate with data the effectiveness of each. I appreciate all of your opinions as I am on a road to learning (41 years so far).
Respectfully yours.

 

[SaggyWoman]

I have posted the recovery principles of Celebrate recovery on another thread in this forum. Check them out.

 

[av1611jim]

APuritan Mindset says,

__________________________________________________
Why are you against a 12 step program? Show me Scripture (not websites and book titles) that says a 12 step program is wrong.
__________________________________________________

Here is why.

The 12th Step of A.A. (and ALL other 12 Step programs) says,

"Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs." (emphasis mine)

Two words.

WORKS SALVATION.
Mean anything to you? And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Read A.A. Comes of Age, and The Big Book of A.A.

I submit, as I did on another thread, (same subject) that you who are defending the 12 Step model of recovery, do not know what you are talking about, IF you have NOT researched these books.

Here is your Scripture;
Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice the corollary. "Spiritual awakening", "Born of the Spirit". It doesn't get any clearer than this, folks.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Stephanie]

I don't know what that was all about but I have felt like a failure to the Lord because I seem to have become physically dependant an pain medication. Now not only do I have to take them to keep my gall bladder under control, I have to take them to have energy at all. I have no money for insurance and my huband has free insurance trough his work so his pain meds have become ours.
I feel like a poor witness but when I quit I'm ither in pain or just drug down terribly. I have 4 little girls and I just can't keep up with all my tasks felling horrible.