Church Discipline

[canadyjd]

Christ said this or did Paul say this?

I believe this is the verse you are referring to;

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So the motive here is to not have a Church that from the outside appears sin is accepted. How would the world get this view if she is no longer fellowshipping with the Church?

They are referring to the commands of Christ in Matt. 18 concerning church discipline.

The motive is not....to not have "a Church that from the outside appears sin is accepted". The motive is to restore the fellowship of a member that has strayed from the faith. Jesus did not command us to abandon them when they walk away. Jesus commanded us to take the steps He gave. The church has done that.

The last step is to go before the entire church so that all members know that she is to be considered an unbeliever and treated appropriately.

peace to youraying:

 

[saturneptune]

What is amazing to me is that you are attributing the worst possible motives to the Christians that are following the Word of God.

You do not know that anyone is "gossiping" in that church. Your are just assuming everyone in the church are hypocrites just wanting to humiliate the woman.

Why do you assume that? Why not assume that they are secerely concerned for this woman's spiritual walk before God and are doing everything God has instructed them to do to help her?

peace to youraying:

I have no idea what your level of common sense is, or if you are just unobservant at the comings and goings at church, but watch sometime.

What amazes me more is that you would post a note like that and sign peace to you.

 

[donnA]

and now she is a nonmember.

she si a nonmember when and if the church removes her from the membership, until then she is a nonattedning memeber.

There is no contract unless such terms and conditions are detailed in such a contract. She has every right to sue them, and I hope she does. What a bunch of busybodies! I hope she does sue and gets a boatload of their money.

apparently you do not believe in the biblical model of church discipline.
What busybodies, she went to church and bragged about her sinful lifestlye to another woman.She advertised her sin. Do you always call people names who seek to obey Jesus?

Since she is no longer a part of that church, they have no business saying anything about what she's doing. Had she stayed in the church, they would be within their rights to take it before the church--as long as they went through the Bible's commands in Matthew 18:15,16 first. First the rebuke should be one on one, then with two or three witnesses if the offender won't listen to that one. Then if the person won't listen, it is to be taken before the church body. However, she has left that church and is no longer subject to their discipline. Why embarrass the children needlessly and drive them away?

she is still a member there.

She's already PUBLICKLY revealed her sins!!!

she has publically revealed her sin, then she can not ever sue the church for publically revealing her sin.

I thought Christians weren't supposed to sue one another?

and yet there are christians here who suggest she sue the church and hope she wins, because they followed what the bible says about discipline.

I do agree that the church handled the situation correctly until she left the church.

she si still a memeber of the church, a nonattending member.

The church does not have any right to discipline people who are on the outside.

the church has the biblical right, given by Jesus, to discipline it's members. They have the responsability to Jesus to discipline it's members.

Are you saying that a church member does not have the right to remove themselves from the role??

for what purpose? to avoid discipline?

That means that every church I have ever been a member of (3), still has authority over me even though I have had my membership moved to my present church?

this is a stretch. you are not a member of your previous churches, they moved your letter to another church. has this woman requested her letter be moved, joined a new church? if any church acepts her with her repentance and setting the situation right with god's word they are irresponsible, and premitting and approving sin.

The rules of discipline only apply to members of a local church. Once they're not members of that church anymore, they have no authority over members who have left.

shes still a member there.

Good way for all rebels to never be under anyone's authoirty but their own!

amen!

not to be "under their authority".

this is unbiblical, when scripture teaches discipline of chrisitans who sin, then we must follow scripture, your suggesting scripture should be thrown out when it comes to discipline. Paul gave instructions to the corrinthian church on disciplining a person in sexual sin. Apparently he disagreedw tih you, the person was under church authority and was to be delt with.

The article said the elders threatened public humiliation

the article said, but what did the church say? did they write to her and say we are going to publically humilate you, nope, the article said, not the church. The bible tells us it is to be taken in front of the church, wether or not shes humilated by it, she should be its her sin.

I can't help but wonder how many of those who are casting stones are without sin?

are you saying churches should not discippline their members because none are prefect without sin? This sin't scriptural, and you just argued against scripture.

What is amazing to me is that you are attributing the worst possible motives to the Christians that are following the Word of God.

yes while avoiding condeming unrepentant sin, that the sinful person does not see as sin, yet scripture is clear about.

 

[saturneptune]

yes while avoiding condeming unrepentant sin, that the sinful person does not see as sin, yet scripture is clear about.

The Scripture is quite clear about this particular sin. The point he was making is that the Scripture is also clear about gossip, etc, etc. Just because you, or I or anyone else thinks an immoral relationship is a worse sin that gossip does not make it so. Sin is sin, and if a church is givng out discipline based on their sliding scale of the severity of sins, then they are not following the Scripture. One thing about gossip, it takes place right on the premesis.

 

[canadyjd]

I have no idea what your level of common sense is, or if you are just unobservant at the comings and goings at church, but watch sometime.

Your personal attack toward me is baffling. Just as you know nothing about the church in question, you know nothing about me or my church.

You do not know what is happening at that church. The letter that was sent, and then made public by the woman, indicates the motivation of the church elders is consistent with our Lord's command from Matt. 18.

If we judge solely on what we know from the link, we can assume the church leadership would also follow our Lord's commands to instruct those involved not to gossip, or face similar discipline.

I still cannot understand why there is so much hostility toward brothers and sisters in Christ that are doing nothing more than obeying the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What amazes me more is that you would post a note like that and sign peace to you.

Another personal attack.

Nevertheless

peace to youraying:

 

[Tom Butler]

There is another aspect of this kind of story.

In order to practice biblical church discipline, churches may be forced to require new members to sign a contract (call it a covenant) outlining the rights and privileges of both church and member.

I know of some churches which already do that--ask new members to sign a covenant, so that each understands what is expected. The dotting of the i's and crossing of the t's may be necessary to survive a legal challenge such as the one in the OP.

I think it's wise for every member to understand the obligations of church membership. I think it's a shame to have to put it in writing just to stay out of court.

 

[LeBuick]

They are referring to the commands of Christ in Matt. 18 concerning church discipline.

The motive is not....to not have "a Church that from the outside appears sin is accepted". The motive is to restore the fellowship of a member that has strayed from the faith. Jesus did not command us to abandon them when they walk away. Jesus commanded us to take the steps He gave. The church has done that.

The last step is to go before the entire church so that all members know that she is to be considered an unbeliever and treated appropriately.

peace to youraying:

Not sure if you were watching closely but I was responding to Havensdad saying;

It starts and stops at public sins: sins that bring disgrace to the Church, and to Christ, and that we can actually know about. We are commanded to do it, by Jesus Himself: if you are not, you are being disobedient, period.

The only verse I would think of off the top of my head that addressed disgracing the Church was the one I quoted from 1 Cor.

The process in Mat 18 I believe is focused on the believer and not disgrace to the Church or Christ. I don't think outward appearance was really a concern to Christ as much as Paul or he would not have spent enough time with Publican's and sinners to get the label of winebibber...

Edited to add... And Paul did indeed concern himself with having a Church that outwardly appeared to be accepting of active sin from its members.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[donnA]

The Scripture is quite clear about this particular sin. The point he was making is that the Scripture is also clear about gossip, etc, etc. Just because you, or I or anyone else thinks an immoral relationship is a worse sin that gossip does not make it so. Sin is sin, and if a church is givng out discipline based on their sliding scale of the severity of sins, then they are not following the Scripture. One thing about gossip, it takes place right on the premesis.

putting words in my mouth? I said nothing about gossip not being a sin or a less sin then anyother sin. Where is the gossip in this story? Whats being said by some on this thread is that the church has no right to discipline, or to discipline this woman.

 

[saturneptune]

putting words in my mouth? I said nothing about gossip not being a sin or a less sin then anyother sin. Where is the gossip in this story? Whats being said by some on this thread is that the church has no right to discipline, or to discipline this woman.

I was referring to another poster who brought up gossip. Not you, not the story. You sure are ready to leap with your feelings. No one said they did not have the right to discipline. Many questioned the purpose of discipline, which is repentence and restoration. Read Matthew for further understanding.

 

[saturneptune]

Your personal attack toward me is baffling. Just as you know nothing about the church in question, you know nothing about me or my church.

You do not know what is happening at that church. The letter that was sent, and then made public by the woman, indicates the motivation of the church elders is consistent with our Lord's command from Matt. 18.

If we judge solely on what we know from the link, we can assume the church leadership would also follow our Lord's commands to instruct those involved not to gossip, or face similar discipline.

I still cannot understand why there is so much hostility toward brothers and sisters in Christ that are doing nothing more than obeying the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ.Another personal attack.

Nevertheless

peace to youraying:

It is not a personal attack. Anyone who has not seen gossip in a church has his head in the sand. It certainly is no worse than you saying I attribute the worst possible motivation to the church, when you have no idea. If you are sensitive, dont lob.

 

[annsni]

There is another aspect of this kind of story.

In order to practice biblical church discipline, churches may be forced to require new members to sign a contract (call it a covenant) outlining the rights and privileges of both church and member.

I know of some churches which already do that--ask new members to sign a covenant, so that each understands what is expected. The dotting of the i's and crossing of the t's may be necessary to survive a legal challenge such as the one in the OP.

I think it's wise for every member to understand the obligations of church membership. I think it's a shame to have to put it in writing just to stay out of court.

In our church, ANYONE in ministry is to be a member of the church and signs a ministry contract. The main points are:

* I willingly choose to refrain from any activity or behavior that would bring dishonor to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and/or might cause another believer to stumble. (Romans 14)
* I accept the Word of God as the absolute standard for all moral and ethical conduct. IN order to assure a clear and consistent policy, the interpretation of the Scriptures by the Pastors of the church shall be the governing and final authority on matters of conduct for volunteers and employees.
* I hereby commit myself to a lifestyle and language that is blameless, even from the appearance of evil.
* In order to make the greatest impact for the Kingdom of God, I will voluntarily lay aside any personal habit or practice, which, in the opinion of my spiritual leaders, inhibits my ministry for the Lord.
* If I should become ensnared by sin, or have questions about how my conduct and choices relate to this Ministry Covenant, I will seek the counsel of a Pastor or the leader of my ministry team.


Unfortunately, there has had to be some action involved with some volunteers in the past and I'm sure that they will in the future (because we have a large volunteer team as well as a staff of over 45). This is only for those who work in any ministry. The congregation is not required to sign this. But I do agree with you, Tom, that it may come down to that. It's sad but true.

 

[LeBuick]

* I willingly choose to refrain from any activity or behavior that would bring dishonor to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and/or might cause another believer to stumble. (Romans 14)

That is a rare attribute and I find it refreshing to see you post. :thumbs:

This was the reason I removed myself from the abortion threads.

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[annsni]

That is a rare attribute and I find it refreshing to see you post. :thumbs:

This was the reason I removed myself from the abortion threads.

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

And this is the exact reason why DH and I no longer drink alcohol. We do not feel it's unbiblical but working with college students, this could SO make them stumble. So it's our choice to abstain for their sakes.

 

[donnA]

I was referring to another poster who brought up gossip. Not you, not the story. You sure are ready to leap with your feelings. No one said they did not have the right to discipline. Many questioned the purpose of discipline, which is repentence and restoration. Read Matthew for further understanding.

I've already read it. And I do understand church discipline. These scriptures and topic were apart of our new members class.

 

[saturneptune]

Maybe another way to ask a question would be, if we are going to practice church discipline, do we have a right before a holy God to decide which sins or lifestyles require discipline and which dont? The example used in this thread was immoral lifestyle and gossip. If you do believe that some sins require discipline and others dont, where do you draw the line? And who are you to draw the line?

Again, this is ultimately up to each local church. I just think our thinking about sin needs to reflect God's, and not what society thinks is worse.

 

[LeBuick]

Maybe another way to ask a question would be, if we are going to practice church discipline, do we have a right before a holy God to decide which sins or lifestyles require discipline and which dont? The example used in this thread was immoral lifestyle and gossip. If you do believe that some sins require discipline and others dont, where do you draw the line? And who are you to draw the line?

Again, this is ultimately up to each local church. I just think our thinking about sin needs to reflect God's, and not what society thinks is worse.

I first wanted to inject the danger of every member calling each other a liar of a cheat and demanding the Church does something about it.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Now I truly believe the Church is the place for sinners. I welcome sinners and would toss out a self righteous "believer" so a sinner could have a seat in the front in a NY minute. But I believe there becomes a point when a person becomes a danger or distraction to the mission and sanctity of the Church. This could be a danger of infecting other believers or a danger of bring dishonor to Christ and His Church.

I believe every Church has gossips but they're not much harm since everyone knows who and what they are. Now when their gossiping begins to hurt the flock is when I believe we need to say something before it gets out of hand.

That's my $00.02.

 

[hawg_427]

I had found out from someone that watched the Fox news that she was never an official member of the church to start with. I had a different reply to this last night, but after I had talked to my Pastor he showed me the new Light. He would never have put her out of the Church over this matter, Love the sinner and hate the sin Jesus says. Now he would have removed her from any official church position she had, like choir, Sunday School, anything like that. I guess we all can have a change of heart. Even in Corinth when the Church wanted to kick out the Son that had relations with his Fathers Wife. Council the person and show them there wrong doings. Even the woman that was caught in the act of adultery, Jesus asked the crowd let anyone who has no sin cast the first stone (paraphrase).
We are all sinners, just forgiven.

God Bless allon the board and have a Very Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year.

Love ya,
Hawg

 

[Tom Butler]

In our church, ANYONE in ministry is to be a member of the church and signs a ministry contract. The main points are:

* I willingly choose to refrain from any activity or behavior that would bring dishonor to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and/or might cause another believer to stumble. (Romans 14)
* I accept the Word of God as the absolute standard for all moral and ethical conduct. IN order to assure a clear and consistent policy, the interpretation of the Scriptures by the Pastors of the church shall be the governing and final authority on matters of conduct for volunteers and employees.
* I hereby commit myself to a lifestyle and language that is blameless, even from the appearance of evil.
* In order to make the greatest impact for the Kingdom of God, I will voluntarily lay aside any personal habit or practice, which, in the opinion of my spiritual leaders, inhibits my ministry for the Lord.
* If I should become ensnared by sin, or have questions about how my conduct and choices relate to this Ministry Covenant, I will seek the counsel of a Pastor or the leader of my ministry team.


Unfortunately, there has had to be some action involved with some volunteers in the past and I'm sure that they will in the future (because we have a large volunteer team as well as a staff of over 45). This is only for those who work in any ministry. The congregation is not required to sign this. But I do agree with you, Tom, that it may come down to that. It's sad but true.

Ann, I might quibble a bit with the wording of the contract, but it's a sound practice to me.

 

[Tom Butler]

I had found out from someone that watched the Fox news that she was never an official member of the church to start with. I had a different reply to this last night, but after I had talked to my Pastor he showed me the new Light. He would never have put her out of the Church over this matter, Love the sinner and hate the sin Jesus says. Now he would have removed her from any official church position she had, like choir, Sunday School, anything like that. I guess we all can have a change of heart. Even in Corinth when the Church wanted to kick out the Son that had relations with his Fathers Wife. Council the person and show them there wrong doings. Even the woman that was caught in the act of adultery, Jesus asked the crowd let anyone who has no sin cast the first stone (paraphrase).

Paul, in I Cor 6 is castigating the church at Corinth, not because it wanted to kick out the man who had had an affair with his father's wife, because they DIDN'T want to. In v. 6 he says "I speak this to your shame. Is there not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?"

He spends all of chapter 5 telling them to deal with the problem.

 

[Revmitchell]

1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you,............1Co 5:2 ........... Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

It is clear in scripture that the church has the responsibility and the God given authority to expel those caught in practicing sin.

1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Contrary to popular belief grace to unrepentant people is not effective and certainly not scriptural. Those who are practicing in this immorality are to be given over to be buffeted by Satan that they may grow ashamed and understand the seriousness of the matter. The expulsion is not for the damnation of the soul but to effect repentance.

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

Scripture does not allow for them simply to be removed from church positions and to simply attend services. They are in fact to be completely removed from fellowship from the church inside or out. Paul moves forward to expand the list but it is not necessarily meant to be exhaustive.

1Co 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

There is a secondary purpose in the removal of these people from fellowship. It is for the protection of the rest of the church. Allowing fellowship with those in open sin does have its effect on the rest of the church.

1Co 5:12 ............... Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Again the church as a clear scriptural mandate and authority to make these judgments. Anything else is rebellion.