Church Discipline

[IveyLeaguer]

Saying that you're leaving the church and that you do not want to be contacted again is not a resignation. A letter is. It is an official capacity. Period.

OK, Ann, I give up.

"I'm never coming back" does not mean that you are removed from the membership of a church. "I want to come here all the time" does not make you a member of a church. It is an official process. "Never contact me again" also does not remove a member from a church.

You want to quibble, be my guest. I've already said it doesn't matter anyway, since the formal letter reached the church weeks in advance of step 3.

Yes there is. However there is no evidence that the church did either.

Argumentative.

... She was still a member of the church until she OFFICIALLY removed herself from the church membership via letter to the pastor/deacon board/elders or whatever the governing body of the church is.

OK, we've covered this many times already.

Who exercised poor judgment? The fool who went to the news because she was afraid of how it would affect her children. Yeah - THAT is smart.

Once again, I am forced to remind you that I have never, and would never, defend the woman.

Yes, it was to be carried out this week - before her letter of resignation arrived.

... it's clear to me that a woman was caught in a sin - was approached about the sin Biblically. She refused to listen and the church was on it's way to the final step of church discipline when she told them "Leave me alone - I'm never coming back - don't contact me".

No - they were following Christ's direct command.

Well, your first two statements have already been proven by the article to be FLAT WRONG. Once again, you confuse the facts.

And the last statement has been proven wrong, at least to my satisfaction, in my previous posts. They are on the record for all to see. But you obviously refuse to see it. I see nothing more to add to this discussion. I did what I could.

God Bless.

:saint:

 

[IveyLeaguer]

If someone resigns church membership for whatever reason, the membership has ended. Were this to happen at my congregation, the clerk would simply inform the congregation that she has resigned her membership and that her name would be removed from the roll.

If further explanation is required, simply announce that a disciplinary process was underway, that the member had resigned in the middle of it, and no further congregational action is necessary.

Thank you so much, brother, for a breath of wisdom. The wisdom to handle these matters is woven throughout the Scriptures but I don't know how to explain that and have it understood. I appreciate that.

Well, for the 3rd year now, I come back to the BB hoping to find profitable discussion. And once again, it doesn't seem worth it.

I'll give it another try next year.

Godspeed to all.

~~~

 

[Salamander]

Thank you so much, brother, for a breath of wisdom. The wisdom to handle these matters is woven throughout the Scriptures but I don't know how to explain that and have it understood. I appreciate that.

Well, for the 3rd year now, I come back to the BB hoping to find profitable discussion. And once again, it doesn't seem worth it.

I'll give it another try next year.

Godspeed to all.

~~~

And you will go away leaving others thinking you left taking a stab at them and failing to realize the liberal attitude you posess controls your thinking.

What is definitely wrong is that this woman resigning takes away any authority from this local assembly. That ideal is placing her above the church in authority and is a total disgrace to the church and is shaking one's fist in the face of God.

What seems to be bothering you is some one takes a strong stand on the Scripture and accountability to the local assembly.

You have made some outlandish and unfounded accusations. If you can live with that it would be best you check up on some things concerning authority and the local church.

 

[Salamander]

Sorry, but you've given no indication so far that you even understand the matter. I don't mean this personally, the Lord bless you, brother (or sister).

And as was pointed out much earlier, you and a few others seem to have a distorted view of the local church and its autonomy. FWIW, it sounds to me like a view that consists of man-made, legalistic, Baptist dogma, so typical of many Baptist churches over the years.
raying:

I find no remorse in your statement, only another stab at some one.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[saturneptune]

I find no remorse in your statement, only another stab at some one.

You don't know what you're talking about.

You have no right telling anyone they do not what they are talking about. Your posts are the standard for that catagory.

 

[John Toppass]

Thank you so much, brother, for a breath of wisdom. The wisdom to handle these matters is woven throughout the Scriptures but I don't know how to explain that and have it understood. I appreciate that.

Well, for the 3rd year now, I come back to the BB hoping to find profitable discussion. And once again, it doesn't seem worth it.

I'll give it another try next year.

Godspeed to all.

~~~

I pray that you seek counsel for anger management. If one wants profitable discussion, one must have something of value to contribute. My prayers are earnestly with you.

 

[annsni]

OK, Ann, I give up.

You want to quibble, be my guest. I've already said it doesn't matter anyway, since the formal letter reached the church weeks in advance of step 3.

See, the difference is that you feel a "I'm not coming back, don't contact me." is a resignation. I see nothing of the sort in that. If your wife said that, would that mean that you would no longer be married? If your child said that would that mean that they are no longer their child? No. Even in a job, without a formal letter, it is not official. In my understanding, church resignation is the same thing.

Well, your first two statements have already been proven by the article to be FLAT WRONG. Once again, you confuse the facts.

And the last statement has been proven wrong, at least to my satisfaction, in my previous posts. They are on the record for all to see. But you obviously refuse to see it. I see nothing more to add to this discussion. I did what I could.

My statements have not been proven wrong. She did not officially resign from the church until after she received the letter stating that they were planning to begin the third step of church discipline. THAT is a fact. It is not flat wrong.

Thank you so much, brother, for a breath of wisdom. The wisdom to handle these matters is woven throughout the Scriptures but I don't know how to explain that and have it understood. I appreciate that.

I fully agree with him too. I don't know why you think I don't. If a person resigns, they are no longer under the authority of the church. End of story. But until they do resign, they still are, whether they feel like it or not.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

And you will go away leaving others thinking you left taking a stab at them and failing to realize the liberal attitude you posess controls your thinking.

What is definitely wrong is that this woman resigning takes away any authority from this local assembly. That ideal is placing her above the church in authority and is a total disgrace to the church and is shaking one's fist in the face of God.

What seems to be bothering you is some one takes a strong stand on the Scripture and accountability to the local assembly.

You have made some outlandish and unfounded accusations. If you can live with that it would be best you check up on some things concerning authority and the local church.

My posts speak for themselves, and there I stand.

:jesus:

 

[IveyLeaguer]

See, the difference is that you feel a "I'm not coming back, don't contact me." is a resignation. I see nothing of the sort in that. If your wife said that, would that mean that you would no longer be married? If your child said that would that mean that they are no longer their child? No. Even in a job, without a formal letter, it is not official. In my understanding, church resignation is the same thing.

My statements have not been proven wrong. She did not officially resign from the church until after she received the letter stating that they were planning to begin the third step of church discipline. THAT is a fact. It is not flat wrong.

I fully agree with him too. I don't know why you think I don't. If a person resigns, they are no longer under the authority of the church. End of story. But until they do resign, they still are, whether they feel like it or not.

Ann, this is really scary. Three times now, you don't get it.

Everything is clearly laid out above, in the thread, in the article. There's nothing more I can say. Sorry.

~~~

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I pray that you seek counsel for anger management. If one wants profitable discussion, one must have something of value to contribute. My prayers are earnestly with you.

Thanks for the cheap shot, brother.

No problem.

:saint:

 

[annsni]

Ann, this is really scary. Three times now, you don't get it.

Everything is clearly laid out above, in the thread, in the article. There's nothing more I can say. Sorry.

~~~

Please explain it again then. Briefly in one post.

BTW - Have you ever been in a situation to be a participant or aware of church discipline? I have. Numerous times.

 

[Dr. Bob]

20 pages is more than enough time to discuss all this - no one is going back and reading all the thread.

We have another discussion (newer) going on discipline so let's wind this one down.

 

[rjprince]

Been away for quite a while, got invited back to look at this one.

First, there are not three steps in the discipline process there are four. Tell the person; if they refuse to repent, tell the person in front of witnesses; if they refuse to repent, tell the church; and four, if they refuse to hear the church, put them out.

Second, there is only one motivation to follow the discipline process. It is not to restore the sinner. It is not to protect the church. It IS to be obedient to the clear commands of Scripture, period. The other things may be desirable, and they may be the resultant outcome, but the reason to do it is because the Word commands it. This was the very first instruction from Jesus concerning the church! Matt 18:17 is the second time the word "church" is used in the NT (first is Matt 16:18).

Third, the church NEVER "outed" the woman, she outed herself. This leaves us with the inescapable conclusion that protecting her kids from the embarrassment was not really her motivation, far more people found out about her sin when she went to the media with the story. Think that Fox is all that conservative? Did anyone notice that they named the letter "Church_Extortion.pdf"? That should have given us a hint as to the slant that they would take when spinning this story...

Fourth, there was never a gossip problem about the matter at GCC. One of my close family members was one of the very early members of the assembly, is still an active member, and was present in the service. The very first that all but a few in the church heard about the matter was from the news, NOT gossip. Gossip may be a problem in many churches, but it is not a problem at GCC in Jax. Shame on you SatNep for criticizing this body of believers for what you knew must certainly be true! It was not!

The press release hit the same day that the church received the letter. On the Sunday that the matter was brought to the church, the matter was handled at the close of the service. Her name was not mentioned, she was referred to as "a sister". The details of her sin were not disclosed, not even the specific type of sin was mentioned. The church was advised that "a sister" had sent in a letter of resignation to avoid dealing with a matter of sin and that she would be removed from the membership. The body was then asked to pray for this person and others involved. That is it. No stoning, no crucifixion, no humiliation. Only brokenness and humility as the matter that had made GCC a national media spectacle was quietly put to rest.

The result to the church. A number of new people now attend GCC as a result of the church's commitment to honor the Word of God. Many of them carry two Bibles, one English and one Greek and some carry other Bible study books as well. Refreshing when a body is that dedicated to following the clear commands of Scripture.

Praise God for the faithfulness of this assembly. May He grant that others are as committed to obedience to the Word of God and may He grant that these kinds of results are seen more often!

 

[rjprince]

20 pages is more than enough time to discuss all this - no one is going back and reading all the thread.

We have another discussion (newer) going on discipline so let's wind this one down.

I went back and read it all... Sometimes I feel a lot like a nobody...

Just could not leave it this open. Wanted to put what really happened out there for consideration. GCC did not deserve to be left like the last few pages of posts had left it...

 

[IveyLeaguer]

I, for one, am delighted to hear that the actual facts in this case are different from the media reports on which much of this thread, and certainly my posts, were based.

The church did not have a public trial or hearing over the sins of a former member after all, which was the thing that got me into this thread. A simple explanation, without an airing of the sins, given to the body was all that was necessary, as I had argued, and that was all that was done.

Even by the media reports, the church was clearly Biblical in their actions up until that point and, happily, it stayed that way. Far from becoming a laughingstock by trying the sins of a former member, the church actually glorified our Lord by following His direction.

A nice ending to an always sad story.

~~~