Not that it matters much, but I don't know how you would have access to that kind of information. For example, I only know the names of the last ten that have visited my profile, and then it tells me that over 18 thousand others have visited. So how would I know if he has or hasn't?
Church of Christ and Baptism
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Salty, Jan 15, 2014.
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And it really doesn't matter much except you are really quick to defend anyone who is anti-Catholic. 'Any enemy of my enemy is my friend!' -
Salty...
Did you ever get your question answered? I married into the CoC some years ago and I have a bit of information about what they believe (or believed in about 1983, anyway).
Or did the ensuing free for all bury your question? -
Did Salty have a question? I must have missed it.
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Humpf?
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Now I realize why you seem to be so sympathetic to the Catholic Church.
Yes I go to an unaccredited bible KJVO bible college that has standards, You say that like it's a bad thing. -
Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I'm sympathetic to the truth wherever I find it, and I've found a lot of it in the Catholic Church. Let me suggest a book that may give you a balanced perspective on the subject: Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. If you can't handle reading something written by a Catholic, try Early Christian Doctrines by J. N. D. Kelly, which is actually more scholarly. Either one will demonstrate to you that your view of the Bible is only one of many, and not necessarily the correct view. -
Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Salvation by sacraments..
setting up of a clergy/ priesthood that ignores the bible doctrine of the universal priesthood of believer..
Papal Infallibility...
Indulgences...
Purgatory..
There's so much distortion of truth in the Catholic Church. -
Jordan Kurecki Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The book itself has some really spiteful and sarcastic overtones at times that plague this type of apologetics. Not only are his arguments weak on the scriptural side, but Keating manages to habitually use verses out of context as well as having a frequent habit of referencing the "early church writers" to prove his points with a suprising amount of historical irresponsibility. Now, in case some aren't aware, he makes mention of writers such as Origen and Justin Martyr to prove his points. Origen was a neo-platonist with gnostic tendancies who allegorized away the resurrection and denied hell as well as several other major Christian doctrines. Justin Martyr was a self proclaimed gnostic in his writings. The fact that he's allowed men with heretical beliefs into the mix should be quite disturbing to anyone--seeing as how you should always check the background qualifications of your references.
He also selectively uses writings from Ignatius and Irenaeus which conform to his arguments--but will omit the fact that both writers (more Irenaeus than Ignatius) also refute many of the dominant doctrines of Catholicism today, such as the authority of tradition (such as Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, c. XXXIII, sec. 8; and also Book I, c. X, sec. 2 written in 180 A.D.) or the fact that Irenaeus, in 180 AD, declares that Peter and Paul ordained Linus as bishop of Rome and then left the city: "The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], then, having founded and built up the Church [in Rome], committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy." (Adversus haereses, Book III, c. III, sec. 3). In case anyone misses the significance, Catholic tradition places Linus as the second "Pope" after Peter's martyrdom. Ignatius further reveals the Linus was Paul's disciple; Peter's disciple, Clement, came afterwards (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians, c. VII, first century AD). Irenaeus also refutes, in no uncertain terms, the notion that the bible cannot be interpreted by anyone but the Catholic Church and its clergy, "...therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all, although all do not believe them." (St. Irenaeus, Adversus haereses, Book I, c. XXVII, sec. 2). These are just a couple of small things, to say the least.
I could go on for a very long time, right on down the list of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers." The fact is, you can pretty much try and prove whatever you want as far as early church doctrines go if you look far enough into the early church writers. There's something there for everything. Heck, even the Jehovah's Witnesses can find stuff in there to prove they're "right." To be quite honest, you can prove or disprove aspects of the Catholic theology by using the same writers. St. Augustine (who's really good at debunking Mary doctrine, but has some really good quotes that can be used out of context to sound like he supports it--I've seen it done), St. Irenaeus, Tertullian (also good at debunking Mary doctrine--who, by the way, was a montanist--another heretical group). Depending on the chapters or passages you use and how out of context you use them, it's really hit and miss. The question is just who to pick and what to pick them for. They varied so wildly in their doctrines that you can't really trust any of them for the "definitive truth". I say all of this with a little bit of fecesiousness because it's rediculous to trust in these men for anything. Believe me, I've read them! They veered with every wind of doctrine, and agreed only to disagree. -
This book was written as an explanation to his fundamentalist and evangelical friends and family about why he became a Roman Catholic.
I want to say that I have read both Catholic and anti-Catholic positions and came to my belief that the Catholic Church is biblical Christianity through that study. Reading the great Catholic debates (before Catholics were banned from the board) in the archives of the Baptist Board had a big influence as well.
I would ask you to consider studying BOTH sides and not just anti-Catholic material and anti-Catholic book reviews. I actually went about my study expecting to easily find the errors of Catholicism and to be able to dismiss the Church as a cult. When I began I was VERY anti-Catholic, now I 'R' one.
BTW, I'm in no way attempting to 'proselytize' on this board. I mention the above book because I believe that it does clear up many misconceptions about Catholicism. Whether a person accepts or rejects Currie's positions I believe he presents them by way of a scriptural basis and therefore should be of interest to those who want to know what the Church ACTUALLY teaches (besides just reading The Catechism of the Catholic Church). -
"By their fruits you shall know them." When he said that he was specifically referring to the doctrine and practices of the false teachers.
Not even the UN would consider the RCC as the true church.
Evaluate the RCC from their perspective:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/un-slams-vatican-39-cover-sex-abusers-posing-185400019.html
UN Slams Vatican
http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/...wed-priests-to-rape-children-un-report-says-1
Vatican Policies -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Bumped a thread you started regarding this passage with TS's response to your position. I really don't know how to import individual posts or I would have done so.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No Roman Catholic Scholar can successfully deny on exegetical grounds that:
1. Romans 4:6-8 describes the two aspects that make up justification - remission of sins/imputation of righteousness
2. Romans 4:9 - these two aspects are the "blessing" that makes the justified man "blessed"
3. Romans 4:9-12 - justification as defined by these two aspects did not occur "IN circumcison" and thus circumcision as a "sign" or "seal" played no literal part in obtaining these blessings of justification or else that would repudiate Paul's words that justification DID NOT OCCUR "IN circumcision but IN uncircumcision."
4. Any interpretation of Romans 4:6-13 that depends upon justification having any literal connection with circumcision is repudiated by Paul's words - "not IN circucumcision but IN uncirucmision."
These exegetical contextual based facts repudiates the whole sacramental system of Romanism and thus repudiates their whole soteriology and condemns it as "another gospel" and thus "accursed." -
RCC NOT a Christian church!
there are saved catholics despite their teachings, but rome is a false church/apostate! -
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Of course as soon as Paul wrote this, he backpedaled a little and acknowledged a couple of individuals he had baptized as well as the household of Stephanus. In fact everywhere Paul went he baptized. The Philippian jailer and his household; Lydia and her household; the Ephesian disciples who had received the baptism of John and who had to be rebaptized in order to receive the Holy Spirit.
There is not a single instance in the New Testament church of anyone coming to Christ without being baptized. Consider the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. He was baptized immediately, while he was still on the road. There was no one around but him and Phiip. If baptism were meant to be a public demonstration of one's belief, he would have waited until there were other people around. -
1 Corinthians 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
There were very few in the church at Corinth that were baptized by Paul.
In other places it was not his habit to baptize others. God did not send him to baptize as he clearly states. There are occasions where he does. But that is not his practice.
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