Amen Bro Winman. and Amen to your post ahead of this one. After that he went into the garden and prayed because his very soon to see death for every man and it was causing sorrow in his soul. He had the indwelling of the HS and was still sorrowful. He prayed and the Father sent an angel who gave him strength and the anguish was still so great that I believe Heb 12:4 applied to Jesus at this time He resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Luke And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
He overcame and was obedient unto death even the death on the cross. That is obedience of faith.
Most want to deny that God came in the flesh. The Christ had promises made to him that 100% God would not need to be made.
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: He did this as a living soul in the flesh. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; This promise is made for the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If God begets himself in the flesh and that flesh dies, the one that beget will have to give life to the one who died.
Clearing my name!!
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Aug 27, 2011.
Page 7 of 9
-
-
No one denied Jesus came in the flesh. That is your second error and false representation of Aaron. I'm amazed another who "amened" you also didn't catch this.
Well, not really. -
That is why the Virgin Birth is a foundemental doctrine, as Jesus would have inherited from his earthly parents IF He came through "normal" means than would have been born a sinner , and NOT qualified to be saviour/Messiah! -
If folks could realize that sin is not something you are, but something you do, all these questions would be cleared up.
Jesus could be tempted just like us, but that does not make him sinful. It does not make us sinful. Actually committing sin is what makes you sinful.
Having potential does not make you sinful. You have the potential to rob a bank, but that does not make you a bank robber. You have to commit the act of robbing a bank to be a bank robber.
It is the same with sin. Having the ability to be tempted does not make you a sinner, actually committing sin makes you a sinner.
Did Adam and Eve have the ability and potential to eat the forbidden fruit? YES. Did that make them sinners? NO. What made them sinners? When they committed the ACT of sin. -
preacher4truth said: ↑Amen! I have stated this dogma also against the error that one said "Jesus could have sinned." This is fallacious teaching. I stand against it and always will.
I also unashamedly stand against those who teach or state God/Christ had a sin nature.
You are 100% correct, He would and could not be God if He could sin, nor if He had a sin nature. Anyone teaching otherwise is in error.Click to expand...
There is a lot of garbage being spouted out. It is time we stand on what says the word of God.
Jesus being named and interperted as God with us
(Mat 1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.Click to expand...
(1Ti 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Click to expand...
(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(Joh 1:2) The same was in the beginning with God.Click to expand...
(Joh 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Click to expand...
(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:Click to expand...
(1Pe 1:19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:Click to expand...
(Isa 53:7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
(Isa 53:8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
(Isa 53:9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
(Isa 53:10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(Isa 53:11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.Click to expand... -
JesusFan said: ↑That is why the Virgin Birth is a foundemental doctrine, as Jesus would have inherited from his earthly parents IF He came through "normal" means than would have been born a sinner , and NOT qualified to be saviour/Messiah!Click to expand...
You are correct. -
Winman said: ↑If folks could realize that sin is not something you are, but something you do, all these questions would be cleared up.
Jesus could be tempted just like us, but that does not make him sinful. It does not make us sinful. Actually committing sin is what makes you sinful.Click to expand...
Having potential does not make you sinful. You have the potential to rob a bank, but that does not make you a bank robber. You have to commit the act of robbing a bank to be a bank robber.
It is the same with sin. Having the ability to be tempted does not make you a sinner, actually committing sin makes you a sinner.
Did Adam and Eve have the ability and potential to eat the forbidden fruit? YES. Did that make them sinners? NO. What made them sinners? When they committed the ACT of sin.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Old Union Brother said: ↑Amen!
There is a lot of garbage being spouted out. It is time we stand on what says the word of God.
Jesus being named and interperted as God with us
Jesus being declared God manifest in the flesh!
Jesus being declared the Word
And the word made flesh
God sending his Son in the likness of sinful flesh
Jesus being compared to a sacrifical Lamb without spot or blemish
An if that doen't satisfy you that Christ did not have a sin nature read what Isaiah had to say about it.
Christ was God in the flesh and could not sin!Click to expand...
Having the nature of men, which the scriptures clearly declare, does not blemish Jesus, because Jesus never DID wrong. This is why he was pure. He was in all points tempted as we are, BUT HE NEVER SINNED.
Sin is not something you are. A murderer is no different from you. His body, soul, and spirit are just like yours. What makes him a murderer is actually committing the act of murder.
You are denying that Jesus came in the flesh. -
Old Union Brother said: ↑Amen!
There is a lot of garbage being spouted out. It is time we stand on what says the word of God.
Jesus being named and interperted as God with us
Jesus being declared God manifest in the flesh!
Jesus being declared the Word
And the word made flesh
God sending his Son in the likness of sinful flesh
Jesus being compared to a sacrifical Lamb without spot or blemish
An if that doen't satisfy you that Christ did not have a sin nature read what Isaiah had to say about it.
Christ was God in the flesh and could not sin!Click to expand...
Amen and amen, and I am under fire for my stance.
I am not the servant of man, but of Christ, and will stand against this error.
BTW, I have NEVER stated ANYONE has said God has sinned, I HAVE, however stood against ANYONE teaching the unorthodox, and anti-biblical teaching that Jesus could have sinned, AND that others have stated He had a sin nature.
These are false teachings and are NOT Baptistic, nor BIBLICAL doctrines. -
Winman said: ↑But you overlook what it actually says. He was pure and unblemished because he DID no evil.
Having the nature of men, which the scriptures clearly declare, does not blemish Jesus, because Jesus never DID wrong. This is why he was pure. He was in all points tempted as we are, BUT HE NEVER SINNED.
Sin is not something you are. A murderer is no different from you. His body, soul, and spirit are just like yours. What makes him a murderer is actually committing the act of murder.
You are denying that Jesus came in the flesh.Click to expand...Click to expand...
We are denying that jesus had the "same" human flesh that vwe all do!
he was born without a sinful nature, which is something NONE of us can claim! -
JesusFan said: ↑Adam and Eve were created by God without sin natures, when they chose to sin, became spiritually dead to God, and we ALL are now born into same state, as they are the physical head over humans, while Jesus spiritual head over those redeemed humans!Click to expand...
Do you deny that? Do you believe we bear Adam's sin? -
Winman said: ↑Utterly false. In Ezekiel 18:20 God himself said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.
Do you deny that? Do you believe we bear Adam's sin?Click to expand...
Jesus is second Adam, head over spiritual humanity, those been redeemed by His blood! -
Winman said: ↑But you overlook what it actually says. He was pure and unblemished because he DID no evil.
Having the nature of men, which the scriptures clearly declare, does not blemish Jesus, because Jesus never DID wrong. This is why he was pure. He was in all points tempted as we are, BUT HE NEVER SINNED.
Sin is not something you are. A murderer is no different from you. His body, soul, and spirit are just like yours. What makes him a murderer is actually committing the act of murder.
You are denying that Jesus came in the flesh.Click to expand... -
Winman said: ↑DHK, there is not one word in scripture to support that Jesus had to be born of a virgin to avoid a sin nature. The scriptures tell us why Jesus was born of a virgin.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Jesus being born of a virgin was a SIGN. It identified him as the Son of God.Click to expand...
And so it is here. There is not just ONE verse, ONE reason, ONE purpose. You must look a the totality of Scripture and look at the whole picture.
I'll give you another quick example. Did you know that there are 10 ways in which Joseph was a picture or type of Christ. 10 Ways, not just one! You have to look at the whole of Joseph's life, not just one aspect. And so it is with the birth of Christ.
Why was Christ born of a virgin.
1. To fulfill prophecy.
2. To avoid inheriting a sin nature.
3. To avoid inheriting a genealogical curse.
4. The fulfillment of the protoevengellium: the seed of the woman would conquer Satan. (Gen.3:15)
5. Because in him was no corruption.
If I go to a Systematic Theology book I may find more. Those are the ones that come to mind within the last three minutes. I am sure you could find much more in Dr. Gresham Machen's book, "The Virgin Birth of Christ," which he wrote in 1930, a book over 400 pages in length. He is a graduate of both Princeton and Westminster Theological Seminaries.
On which of the above do you wish me to elaborate?
Let's look at #3. It is always interesting. For Christ to be the Messiah; to sit on the throne of David, he had to have two genealogies that led right back to David. The Jews had to see this in writing in order to accept Him as their Messiah. Thus we have the genealogy of Christ, the son of Joseph, in Matthew one, and Jesus, the son of Mary in Luke 2. Both seem to be legitimate in tracing his genealogy back to David, if not right back to Adam (in one of them). In Matthew he is presented as Messiah the King. In Luke he is presented as a man, the perfect man. So Matthew's genealogy (the father's) becomes very important. What the genealogy does not show is one terrible glitch. It is found in Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 22:24-30 depicts a vivid, horrifying picture of a king that was a descendant of David. His name is Jehoiakim, also known as Coniah:
As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; (Jeremiah 22:24)
--Coniah was disobedient. God placed a curse on him so that he nor any of his descendants would ever sit on David's throne. The curse that is written in this passage is one of the most strongly worded and vivid curses written in the Bible.
O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (Jeremiah 22:29-30)
--Although the genealogy of Matthew does not spell it out, Joseph was of the line of Coniah. Yes he was of the line of David, but also of the line of Coniah. He was not qualified to sit on the throne of David. Thus Jesus had to be born of a virgin to escape this curse. Often this is an over-looked reason. You see, you just can't come out and give a flippant reason--it is a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14. The virgin birth is much, much more than that. Machen wrote over 400 pages on it. I am sure he said more than "a fulfillment of prophecy." -
JesusFan said: ↑God forsaw ALL of us to be born in the future as being "in Adam" that Adam stood for physical humanity, so when he fell, we fell with him!
Jesus is second Adam, head over spiritual humanity, those been redeemed by His blood!Click to expand...
That is what I see over and over in this thread, folks directly contradicting the scriptures and spouting the doctrines of men. -
Winman said: ↑Then you believe we all bear the iniquity of Adam, we are born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin, directly contradicting what God said in Ezekiel 18:20
That is what I see over and over in this thread, folks directly contradicting the scriptures and spouting the doctrines of men.Click to expand...
What has this got to do with man's sin nature? -
DHK said: ↑The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)
What has this got to do with man's sin nature?Click to expand...
That is a direct contradiction of what God said. -
Winman said: ↑JF said we are born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin, God said "The soul that sinneth, it SHALL die." This shows we are not born spiritually dead, you have to be alive to die.
That is a direct contradiction of what God said.Click to expand...
As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. (Ezekiel 18:18)
--"cruelly oppressed," "spoiled," "by violence,"...."he shall die in his iniquity."
--It is speaking of physical death. It is speaking of their justice system, not spiritual death. There is no spiritual death spoken of in verse 20. It relates to their civil law, capital punishment, physical death. You are taking scripture out of context. -
DHK said: ↑Context Winman. Don't pull Scripture out of context! Look at verse 18 first:
As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. (Ezekiel 18:18)
--"cruelly oppressed," "spoiled," "by violence,"...."he shall die in his iniquity."
--It is speaking of physical death. It is speaking of their justice system, not spiritual death. There is no spiritual death spoken of in verse 20. It relates to their civil law, capital punishment, physical death. You are taking scripture out of context.Click to expand...
"and IN HIS SIN that he hath sinned, IN THEM shall he die."
God is speaking of the eternal here, he is speaking of dying IN SIN.
And in vs. 27 God says;
"he shall save HIS SOUL alive"
God is not speaking of physical death here, but of our eternal state at death. -
Winman said: ↑I disagree, look at verses 24 and 27. In vs. 24 God says;
"and IN HIS SIN that he hath sinned, IN THEM shall he die."
God is speaking of the eternal here, he is speaking of dying IN SIN.
And in vs. 27 God says;
"he shall save HIS SOUL alive"
God is not speaking of physical death here, but of our eternal state at death.Click to expand...
Verse 18 and 20 go together.
Not verse 20 and 27.
Even the KJV translators put a paragraph marker at the beginning of verse 21.
Page 7 of 9