http://www.the-highway.com/election_Shelton1.html
After reading this article do you view this verse the same way?
After reading this article do you view this verse the same way?
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Come to a better understanding of this verse!
- Thread starter 2BHizown
- Start date
Personally, I have no problem with God's sovereignty in all things, including salvation....I just don't see the problem with believing a sovereign God in His sovereign will and purpose created a being called man with the ability to legitamately respond to Him. That we can respond to God does not negate any of His sovereignty. BTW---as I have stated before I am neither a calvinist nor an arminian. Both have verse that are difficult for them.
Bro Tony
Bro Tony
Brother Bob
New Member
whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely given by our Sovereign God who's love is the only one who can save us. Anyone else could give their body to be burned and would profit them nothing but God is Sovereign and by His love alone we can be saved.
How much Calvinests and Mormons remind me of each other. Mormons will tell me in about 10 pages or 45 min. why "one God" does not really mean, only one God. And Calvinests will do the same thing with "whosoever, all and world".
And both will accuse me not listining to reason when I decide to just trust the clear meaning of scripture and not their lengthy interpetation of scripture.
And both will accuse me not listining to reason when I decide to just trust the clear meaning of scripture and not their lengthy interpetation of scripture.
Brother Bob
New Member
Yea, there does not seem to be any who have changed their minds at all. I was hoping to win some over but failed miserable.:tear:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I read the entire article and here is the main point where he errs.
Notice the sentence in bold. I think most of us would agree with this point. God must draw fallen men to himself. Which is why John 12:32 is so significant to this discussion: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
It appears that God has done just that. God is drawing all peoples to himself! By what means? The WORD! The powerful gospel message spread by the very BRIDE OF CHRIST throughout the entire world.
What Calvinists fail to understand is that when Christ was on earth (prior to being lifted up) He didn't want to draw all men to himself. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Jesus hid the secrets of the kingdom in parables so that people would not understand and repent. (Mk 4) Israel was being hardened, otherwise they might have seen, heard, understood and repented (Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41).
Why didn't Christ want to draw all men? If the Jews had believed then who would have crucified Christ? God had to seal them in their state of rebellion (hardening) so that they would not see, hear, understand and believe. This hardening was temporary (Rm 11:26) and was actually meant to provoke the Jews to salvation (Rm 11:14). God was showing mercy even in hardening men (Rm. 11:32).
The first point of the 5 points of Calvinism, Total Depravity, is the key point of contention in this huge debate throughout history. It must be established through scripture that men's condition is so depraved that not even the powerful word of God is sufficient to draw men to faith. I believe that is impossible considering that scripture says so much about the power of the word. Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ. Christ calls his words "spirit and life." The word is a double edged sword that cut through bone and into the heart. Yet, there is the assumption that the word is not sufficient to draw anyone who hears it? Why is that?
Notice the sentence in bold. I think most of us would agree with this point. God must draw fallen men to himself. Which is why John 12:32 is so significant to this discussion: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
It appears that God has done just that. God is drawing all peoples to himself! By what means? The WORD! The powerful gospel message spread by the very BRIDE OF CHRIST throughout the entire world.
What Calvinists fail to understand is that when Christ was on earth (prior to being lifted up) He didn't want to draw all men to himself. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Jesus hid the secrets of the kingdom in parables so that people would not understand and repent. (Mk 4) Israel was being hardened, otherwise they might have seen, heard, understood and repented (Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41).
Why didn't Christ want to draw all men? If the Jews had believed then who would have crucified Christ? God had to seal them in their state of rebellion (hardening) so that they would not see, hear, understand and believe. This hardening was temporary (Rm 11:26) and was actually meant to provoke the Jews to salvation (Rm 11:14). God was showing mercy even in hardening men (Rm. 11:32).
The first point of the 5 points of Calvinism, Total Depravity, is the key point of contention in this huge debate throughout history. It must be established through scripture that men's condition is so depraved that not even the powerful word of God is sufficient to draw men to faith. I believe that is impossible considering that scripture says so much about the power of the word. Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ. Christ calls his words "spirit and life." The word is a double edged sword that cut through bone and into the heart. Yet, there is the assumption that the word is not sufficient to draw anyone who hears it? Why is that?
Last edited by a moderator:
Timtoolman
New Member
He who defines the terms wins the debate.
Marcia
Active Member
The writer of this article loses credibility for me because he says this near the beginning (the caps are his):
The fact he would consider anyone disagreeing with him on this as holding false doctrine is a very serious charge. It shows that he is making dividing lines that shouldn't exist among believers in the body of Christ and I consider that to be unbiblical. Therefore, I have no respect for what he says.
The fact he would consider anyone disagreeing with him on this as holding false doctrine is a very serious charge. It shows that he is making dividing lines that shouldn't exist among believers in the body of Christ and I consider that to be unbiblical. Therefore, I have no respect for what he says.
Accuracy of interpretation of God's sovereignty.
I admit that man makes errors at times in interpreting so lets consider a few scriptures that validate God's sovereign control of man and events, including salvation!
The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. Prov. 16:1
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." Acts 4:27-28
"This man [Christ], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death" Acts 2:23
Eli's sons come to mind: "did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them"(1 Sam 2:25)
I admit that man makes errors at times in interpreting so lets consider a few scriptures that validate God's sovereign control of man and events, including salvation!
The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. Prov. 16:1
"For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." Acts 4:27-28
"This man [Christ], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death" Acts 2:23
Eli's sons come to mind: "did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them"(1 Sam 2:25)
Terry_Herrington
New Member
webdog said:
How true! I know that Calvinism is possibly the worse false heresy to find its way into church doctrine. I would rather attend a Jehovah's Witness kingdom hall than a reformed baptist church!