Commandment keeping

The context is about Abraham and his faith manifested good works, even though he fell at times. The context concerns how the Gentiles are counted as the seed of the promise through Abraham, not that faith without works is acceptable to God. James chapter 2 exposes the faith without works misconception quite well and confirms we shall be judged by the law also.

Michael

 

In the book of Romans, especially in chapter 4, Paul uses Abraham as an example of how a person is justified by faith without the works of the law. He does a very thorough job of that and then concludes with 5:1, wherein he says:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--There are no works in salvation. It is by faith and faith alone.

In James, James addresses his epistle to Christians ("brethren), and the theme is "practical Christian living." This is in opposition to the book of Romans which was a theological treatise on soteriology or salvation. In James, he addresses practical problems that the Christian faces in every day life: tribulation, wisdom, temptation, taking care of widows and orphans, doing good works, the use of the tongue or watching your language, carnal living, abuses of the rich, healing of the sick, etc. These are problems that these believers were having in day to day living, and many today are facing similar problems. None of them have to do with salvation.
What James was speaking about in James chapter two is the outcome of one's salvation. A person who is truly saved will in his life exhibit works. The works don't save. They are a consequence of his life; the fruit of his life. This is known in Gal.5, as the "fruit of the Spirit."

 

I do believe that those who are attempting to reason with ya aren’t even hinting that we are justified by works, but that the works of the law are a natural result—practical Christian living—as ya put it. The latter is sanctification, which is also indispensable to salvation. Those practical problems are what we are called to overcome through grace, which then fulfills the law in us.

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Rom. 8:3-4

The book of Revelation warns the church in numerous admonitions that overcoming those so called “practical problems” are bound to being found in the kingdom of God.

Michael

 

And I posted scripture that flat out contradicts your position. So does scripture contradict itself? No. Thus, you have a real problem there DHK!

Peace!

 

It's not me that has the problem. I can deal with the Scripture you give me; but you can't deal with the Scripture I give you. I will await your answer to Romans 4:4,5.
You can be the one to do the reconciling.
What is the teaching of Romans 4:4,5?

 

Indeed Justification "past" is addressed in Romans 3 and 4 and in 5:1

"Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

But in Romans 2:11-16 we see the issue of FUTURE justification "For not the hearers of the Law are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be Justified... on the day when according to my Gospel God WILL JUDGE the secrets of all mankind".

In "Justification" that is past - the salvation that pertains is the one that takes the lost person from being lost - to being saved.

In "Justification" future - the the salvation that pertains is the one that "demonstrates" that the Tree has been made Good - or that the tree is not in fact a good one. "By their fruits you shall know them"

Indeed - and James brings out the principles of justification future - where the works, the fruit - testifies to the reality of the born-again condition. In the example in James 2 - the works are the works of Abraham - showing him to have been a born again saint.

Thus when James applies the term "justification" to that discovery - (after the fact discovery about the life of a saved born-again saint -- Abraham) it is not speaking of judging Abraham of works he performed BEFORE being born-again - but works he performed AFTER being born-again, after the New Creation was setup and the New heart Created. The tree is then "seen" to be a "good tree" by the fruit of it.

Seeing the fruit - does not change the fruit - or the tree.

The justification that is future - does not change the status of the tree - it merely documents it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I see. So when you post "[You] look at the context and [you] know what it means " Conversely, when I post relevant scripture it is ignored based upon your judgment that it is "cut and paste - anyone can do that" or "[you] don't understand what it means" or “[you] take it out of context." That in itself, is nothing more than a way to avoid honest debate.

You posted two verses from Romans (Romans 4:4-5) that would seem to contradict the importance of works. However, you are missing a most important point - that the verse precludes salvation by works of the Old Testament law.

When you look at Romans 4 also compare it with Jas. 2:21 -- "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith. Paul means that Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law, while James speaks of Abraham as being justified by doing a work that grew OUT of his faith in God.

The latter is precisely what "works" now mean. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. See the connection? Here’s more!

“Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two . . . and might reconcile us both to God in one body. . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:11-19).

The apostle clearly distinguishes between works of the Mosaic Law and the kind of works a Christian should be interested in-good works:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in [DO] them" (Eph. 2:10).

The sense of what Paul is saying is: "God has raised up both of us-Jews and Gentiles-to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law. So neither Jew nor Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. "Instead, we Christians are the result of God's work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works-the kind of works we should be concerned about-for God intended ahead of time for us to do them" (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6-10).

Now – I have addressed your point, yet you continue to ignore mine. Thus, let us examine the problem here. There is a contradiction between the few verses that you posted which SEEM to state that works are of no value, and the reams that I provided in post #138 clearly indicating the seminal importance of works. Therefore one of the following is true:
1. Scripture contradicts scripture
2. When one uses the totality of scripture there are no contradictions (which is as it should be)

Using the language of the Bible to summarize:
1) a man is justified by faith apart from works of the [Mosaic]Law
2) by faith alone
3) for faith apart from works is dead
4) but faith WORKING through love (Rom. 3:28, Jas. 2:24, 26, Gal. 5:6).

You must learn to distinguish between the works of the Mosaic Law, and the GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them

Once you understand this, you should no longer have a problem with works.

Peace!

 

You haven't addressed my point. You immediately went to James. Try staying on Romans 4 and addressing it without going to other Scripture. It is called exegesis, and sometimes exposition. You can do either one. But stay with Romans 4. What do these verse mean apart from the rest of Scripture. We can deal with the rest of Scripture later. Start here first.

 

No it's called cherry picking and you don't set the rules. I went to places in scripture that flesh-out what Paul and James were saying. No wonder you want to live in Romans DHK, however, there's more to scripture than that. Now, I went to the trouble to address your point - how about a little reciprocity?

Peace!

 

Your just like Bob. Bob won't address Exodus 31:13-18; it defeats the beliefs of the SDA. His POV is avoid and go elsewhere. Most cults take the same approach.
You are following in the same footsteps. Avoid and go elsewhere. You can't explain a passage--go elsewhere. You have a problem--jump to another passage. The passage defeats what you believe. Obviously you are in a corner and can't get out. Find an answer. What does Romans 4:4,5 mean.

 

Romans is not actually that good of a place for DHK to stop - as even you pointed out in Romans 2. The same could be pointed out in Romans 6 and in Romans 8.

DHK will always be focused on the Romans 3, 4 and 5 aspects of the lost as they are brought into justification "past" - the moment one becomes a born-again Christian.

And the doctrine of perseverance of the saints will always highlight the truth of scripture found in Romans 2, and 6 and 8 and John 15 - and many other NT texts as well.

Thus DHK has a whole list of texts "to avoid".

But he does get credit for at least having some light in Romans 3, 4 and 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You only showed your error in the application of scripture.

Commandment keeping is not how the lost remain saved.

in Romans 5:1 - "Having been justified by faith - we have peace with God".

Romans 10 - "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation".

 

I believe you misspoke.

Did you mean to say,

And persevering in that walk of obedience to the law- is the fruit of those who will still be saved at the end.

 

Any law you break whether "big" or "small" makes you guilty of all. How do you think you are doing?

How are you doing with your law keeping? Remember, anything less than perfection is failure.

God knows them that are His. He needs not check in with the law keeping to see if one has faith in Him. This "faith checking" is for the legalist and cultist that they may have power over their subjects.

Gal 3:17And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The law cannot disannul the promise of justification through faith.

The law does not judge faith. Faith overcomes the flaw in the law, in that it cannot save.

 

You need to read the texts referenced.

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Gal 2:20 shows how this is in fact "the walk of faith".

20 ""I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21 ""I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.''

 

Maybe you could explain how your application of these verses lines up with....

Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

Well, if you believe that the Gospel can be confined to one or two verses from the entire bible without regard to scripture as a whole, then yes - I can see how one might come to that conclusion. :rolleyes:

I would say that most cults do as YOU do - hang onto one or two hand picked verse(s) ignoring the totallity of scripture in order to sustain an untenable doctrine. Here's a well worn yet applicable example, DHK:

Matthew 27:5 + Luke 10:37

"Then Judas went away and hanged himself..." + "...Go and do likewise"

Voila -- using your approach, a new doctrine is born. ;)

Conversely, those "other passages" conflict with what you are attempting to make your cherry picked verses say. I think any honest reader can say that I did not avoid your passages; rather, I used them T O G E T H E R with other scripture in order to get at their actual meaning within the context of scripture. You always harp on context, DHK, yet your methodology proves antithetical to the entire concept.

Hardly - it does, however, reinforce my position and I've shown that to be the case using those two verses. Why not actually read post #147? Could it be that, when the works that you claim are of no avail turn out to be the works required under Mosiac Law as applied to the Pharisees, that your position disintegrates? Hmmm... Unfortunately, you no longer have that convenient straw man to flail against.

Ahhh... the death of an idea... In pace requiescat!

Peace!

 

Because those are the works of the Mosaic Law. See post #147.

Peace!

 

So now the chorus of voices rises calling for DHK to show a level of "value" for the concept of "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine - such that he would embrace - rather than flatly reject Biblical exegesis of a doctrine.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
You need to read the texts referenced.

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Gal 2:20 shows how this is in fact "the walk of faith".

20 ""I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21 ""I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.''

Well... I was hoping to leave that to you as a trivial exercise in Bible exegesis.

You sure you do not want to take a look at the text and see if you can find the solution before I "tell" it to you?

Hint: the "solution" will start here - and then go right into Romans 3. You know - like the Bible reads.

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?


5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


In Romans 2 Paul deals with the job of contrasting the "good trees" of Matt 7 to the "bad trees" in a "by their fruits" style discussion. Contrasting the walking of faith - vs the walk of those whose minds are set on the flesh.

In the section of Romans 3 that you are so interested in - Paul discusses the job of the lost in coming to Christ and accepting salvation. As usual your focus is to circle back to the POV of the lost whenever the Romans 2 concept of the walk of faith "New Covenant" is identified.

in Christ,

Bob