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Continued - Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement.

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Covenanter, Jul 10, 2019.

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  1. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I prepared this & found the thread closed - we need local Christian sources, not propaganda.

    For the safety of the frail during the war against the Jewish terrorists - see my earlier link.

    That definition applies to the Palestinian people - "The above definition of Zionism could apply, in principle, to the wishes and desires of any other people to life in freedom, security, prosperity in their own nation, free from persecution or any other threat. (Peace Encyclopedia)"

    I am happy to be on the side of love, mercy, peace & justice. (Micah 6:8) So should the Israel of God.

    Palestinian homes are being systematically bulldozed to make way for Jews & Jewish settlements, water is diverted from Palestinians to provide settlements. Palestinian olive farms are burnt or bulldozed, especially at harvest times. Farmers have to queue for hours to pass through checkpoints to get to their farms. Children who throw stones at IDF militia who tear gas their schools are arrested & imprisoned for years, arrested in the night & questioned without parent or lawyer.

    The official Zionist history is biased - I suggest you get your information from such Christian sources as Bethlehem Bible College
    or Peacemaker Trust.
     
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  2. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    It is difficult to feel sorry for the Arabs when they told their people to leave because they were starting a war and then when they lost the war they wanted to return. Return to what?

    Islam, as the Brits should know very well by now, does not assimilate because Islam thinks that Islamic culture is superior and that there is no law above sharia law. Islam seeks only to dominate. Look at what is happening in Brit schools. Brits teach their children at a young age about LGBTUVWXYZ but Islam has put a stop to that in their areas in the UK. If Islam does not eat pork, then you cannot eat pork either. So therefore public institutions have to serve only halal food. The UK has allowed sharia courts to accommodate people who do not believe in European law but a higher Islamic law in their opinion.

    So the idea that there was no holocaust and that Germany was not socialistic, has led to attacks on Israel after Europe made it clear that it didn't really want Jews in Europe. From what I have read, Jews are leaving France and the UK.

    The Arabs have a land mass about the size of the USA and the idea that they need a nation on the tiny Gaza strip named after the Latin word for Philistines is sheer politics. The UK is making a lot of money in Iran and China and her interests no longer coincide with American interests internationally. Iran has promised to nuke Jerusalem but they also want to conquer Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, all of who are allied with the USA along with Israel. China and Russia are on the march and the UK probably will try to align with France and Germany to check Russia and keep trading with China. The Brits are trying to blame this on Trump but there is no real evidence that the Brits truly liked Obama. If the Brits are crazy about Obama, they can give him a call on the Riviera and he will be in London the next morning. By the way, Americans are aware of the British role in the attempted coup of an American president. You are not as good as you used to be.
     
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Talk about propaganda
     
  4. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    Where do you get this propaganda from?

    Zionists terrorized Arabs out of their lands. Long before Arabs invaded Palestine, Zionists were already conducting ethnic cleansing.

    Arabs owned 85% of Palestine while Zionists after aggressive buying only owned 7%. UN recommended two states with Zionists gobbling 54% and Arabs 45%. Israel was the aggressor. They were not going to achieve Zionist ideals while they remained minority in Palestine. That’s how it all started.

    Stop spreading hate about Islam. Jews lived as minorities in Palestine for centuries until Zionism was conceived in the 1800s. Before 1920 nobody attacked Jews in Palestine. Enter Zionism which influences UN which denies Arabs self determination while granting the same to Jews in a piece of land where Jews owned a mere 7%. What do you expect?

    The Arabs were kicked out of their lands. That’s the beginning of refugee problem. Palestinians don’t own all Arab land mass, they owned Palestine and were kicked out of Palestine. They are not about to forget that. Israel hasn’t no right to exist and it has denied Palestinians right to exist
     
    #4 Agent47, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  5. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    It could apply to the Palestinians IF those ideals were their goals. But their goal is to destroy Israel, not self determination. The Palestinians have always been offered peace and responded to every concession Israel made for peace with bloodshed and more terrorism.

    The "homes" being bulldozed were actually makeshift barracks and bomb making shops. It was not like there were Palestinian families eating dinner and a bull dozer comes in.

    Yes, those stones are actually pretty dangerous. These are not young children, but older adolescents who can throw stones with deadly force. In the US our border agents have been severely injured in the past by stones being thrown at them. Those stones, at point blank range can be deadly.

    As for those farmers and those checkpoints... Those were made necessary because of terrorism being inflicted upon Israel by the Palestinians.

    I don't respect Bethlehem Bible College. It is nothing but an anti-Semitic, Islamic gathering meant to demonize Israel and nothing more. It is a reproach to Christ and does not reflect authentic, biblical Christianity.

    What people like you do, is you want to talk about Israel's defensive countermeasures without talking about the terrorism that precipitates those actions. You try to present Israel's actions in a vacuum and that is simply unfair and distorts the historical record.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That is what is propaganda
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    More propaganda
     
  8. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    Ignored
     
    #8 Agent47, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2019
  9. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    That is false. Israel has never denied the Palestinians right to exist. Israel is the only one who has agreed to the two-state solution. The Jews have always agreed to it. They agreed to a two-state solution in 1936, 1947 and 2000. It was the Arabs who walked away from a nation for the Palestinians.

    Israel has every right to exist. It's rights are both legal, historical and biblical. It's only the Palestinians calling for the Jews' annihilation.

    That is another falsehood. The Zionists, as you call them, were busy building farms and infrastructure on the land they purchased from the Turks. They were not kicking out the Arabs. Few Arabs lived in Palestine at the time.

    Alan Dershowitz points out that there was quite a bit of ethnic diversity in Palestine as early as the eighteenth century.notes, "In addition to Arabs and Jews, the other ethnic groups in Palestine at the end of the nineteenth and the beginning of the twentieth century included Kurds, German Templars, Persians, Sudanese, Algerians, Samaritans, Tatars, Georgians, and many people of mixed ethnicities." (Dershowitz, A Case for Israel, 2003, p. 26)

    These people lived in the cities and coastlines, and there were far more people than Arabs and Jews living Palestine. Most of the area was not inhabited. There was no bustling Palestinian majority and no genocide of the Palestinians. In fact, the Arabs were not even called "Palestinians" at that time.

    The Jews had no ability to commit genocide. They were farmers, not soldiers and did come to uproot anyone living there at that time, which is why the land they purchased was mostly swamp and desert that no one else wanted.

    The false narrative that the Jews came in and drove out the Palestinians from their land simply has no basis in real history. The historical documents of the time period do not bear out this narrative.
     
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  10. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    I won’t waste time with bar talk.

    Answer these quickly and briefly

    1. Drop the population figures for Jews and Arabs in Palestine by end of 1947

    2. Drop land ownership figures for entire Palestine by end of 1947 between Jews and Arabs


    3. Who formed Israel? (A) Zionists (B) UN (C) Britain

    4. What were the area of the proposed two states? Give percentages ?
     
  11. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    850,000 Arabs, and 600,000 Jews. Those numbers are approximate.


    This is not simple question to answer:

    Land ownership from 1945-1947
    In 1945 the British commissioned a survey of land ownership in Mandatory Palestine for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry on Palestine. This survey was the research that the UN relied upon when suggesting how the region could be partitioned. The illustration below is a visual representation of this survey. It clearly shows that the the UN’s suggested Jewish state was in the areas with heavy Jewish ownership or state ownership (such as the barren Negev Desert). While the proposed Arab state was in the regions with heavy Arab ownership. The claim that Jews stole Palestinian land is factually incorrect.

    israel-arab-jewish-land-ownership-1945.jpg


    By 1947, Jewish holdings in Palestine amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin. 7 Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As’ad el–Shuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement, including members of the Muslim Supreme Council, sold land to Jews. 8 (Source>>> Is it true that Israel stole Palestinian land? )


    All three had a hand in the formation of Israel. The UN legally conferred statehood on Israel. Britain, for better or worse, had a hand in the creation of the Jewish state through the League of Nations Mandate and the Zionists built the country and its infrastructure.

    As you can see in the maps above, that question is plainly answered.
     
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  12. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    Let me answer them to save us time

    1. Jews were 650,000 and Arabs were 1,200,000

    Source? UN Report
    Question of Palestine/Majority plan (Partition), Minority plan (Federal State)- UN Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) - Report - Question of Palestine


    2. Land ownership figures?

    68. The village statistics for 1945 prepared by the Palestine administration and showing the position as at 1 April 1945 furnish interesting data regarding land ownership in Palestine (see appendix VI to this report). The total Arab land ownership is given in dunums (4 dunums equal approximately 1 acre), as being 12,574,774, as against a total Jewish ownership of 1,491,699.
    Source? UN
    mlwerke.de: Chapter 3 of "Palestine as a unitary republic with equal rights for all: Minority position at UN 1947"

    You have a Masters. Do the ratio

    3. Zionists unilaterally declared the state of Israel in May 1948. Britain promised nationhood to BOTH Arabs and Jews to enlist their support in the war but failed to deliver. It handed the question to UN. UN made a resolution. Resolution 181 did not form Israel, it was just a recommendation that had to be approved by both Jews and Arabs.

    By Zionists I mean exactly that; individuals who harbored strong Jewish nationhood aspirations.

    4. The UN proposed partition would have handed Arabs 44% and Jews 55% or thereabouts

    Proof? Refer to the documents quoted

    Do you now better understand why Arabs were infuriated by both the partition recommendation and by Zionists’ unilateral declaration of the state of Israel over their lands?

    Do you also understand why 700,000 Arabs had to be kicked out of Palestine to never be admitted back after the war?
     
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  13. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    If you are talking about ALL of Palestine, yes. But Palestine was larger than just the area that would be state of Israel. In the area that would become Israel, the number of Arabs was lower. Palestine was a region than just area that would become Israel. In that area, the numbers of Arabs are closer to the number I gave.

    I would also add that your UN document shows a healthy increase in Arab population from over 486,000 in 1922 to over 1 Million by 1946. Yet you maintain that the Jews during this same period were committing genocide on the Arab population. Even the documents you provide debunk that claim that you continue make over and over. It is possible to have a population increase like that if your population is the victim of genocide. Genocide lowers populations; it doesn't make them grow.

    What that chart shows is that the land was considered Palestinian land, but land that was part of the British mandate to distributed to each group.

    It is important to remember that when Britain was given the mandate to make Palestine a Jewish homeland by the League of Nations, "Palestine" was a huge area owned by the Turks until after WW1. It included the country we now call Jordan. Jordan was created when the British gave 3/4 of the Mandate to the Arabs and they created Trans-Jordan and gave the remaining 25% to the Jews. That 25% was then "Palestine." That last remaining area was divided up by the UN to be a Jewish state and yet another Arab state.


    Wrong. It was not unilateral. The UN passed resolution 181 and the state of Israel was recognized by the world community, except for the Arab nations who voted against it. It was the 2nd time that the Arabs rejected a two-state solution.

    And the Arabs rejected it. They stopped the creation of an Arab nation called Palestine.


    The Arabs have every excuse they can think of to reject the two state solution. The truth is that they oppose the existence of Israel. If Israel had been given only 1% of the land, they would have still opposed it. It has nothing to do with the 55% vs. 45% ratio. It would not have mattered what the ratio was.

    Do you also understand why 700,000 Arabs had to be kicked out of Palestine to never be admitted back after the war?[/QUOTE]
     
    #13 GoodTidings, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  14. Wingman68

    Wingman68 Well-Known Member
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    ok, mr alinsky. You have a lot of practice at this, I see.
     
  15. Agent47

    Agent47 Member
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    How may I help you?
     
  16. GoodTidings

    GoodTidings Active Member

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    The Haganah were not terrorists. And you are confusing the Arab invasion of 1948 with your previous account of Deir Yassin.

    Seems like all you are going to put out is propaganda and misinformation.
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Nothing true about that post
     
  18. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Both sides agreed to a two state solution in 1993.

    In 1993 Israel, led by Rabin’s foreign minister Shimon Peres, held a series of negotiations with the PLO in Oslo, Norway. In early September Yasser Arafat sent a letter to Rabin saying that the PLO recognized Israel’s right to exist, accepted UN Resolutions 242 and 338 (which called for lasting peace with Israel in exchange for Israel’s withdrawal to its pre-1967 borders), and renounced terrorism and violence. Days later they signed a Declaration of Principles (known as the Oslo Accords), agreeing to set up Palestinian self-government over five years’ time in exchange for Palestinian partnership in matters of Israeli security. The most contentious issues (including Jerusalem, final borders and Jewish settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and the return of Palestinian refugees) were set to be discussed after that five-year period.

    Source two-state solution | Definition, Facts, History, & Map
     
    #18 FollowTheWay, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2019
  19. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Another troll post.
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Probably shouldn't quote his plagiarism
     
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