You can take issue all you want. But your blind belief in the KJV at this point demonstrates your unbelief in the Word of God. There was no taxation at that period. The Greek word means enrollment. Other translators agree. That is one of the reasons the Jews went so willingly "to be enrolled." A few years later when there was an actual taxation there was somewhat of a revolt, as is to be expected when any taxation occurs. There was no revolt here. Everything was peaceful. It was an enrollment, a registration. The same thing happens today in our country. Before an election actually takes place Census Canada takes an "enrollment" door-to-door, to make sure of the number of registered voters in each household. There is an enrollment, a registration before the election (of the elected government who then taxes us).
Most KJVO's believe in a secondary inspiration, that is, that a second inspiration took place in 1611 making the KJV just as inspired as the original. How else could it be infallible and inspired it that didn't happen? Look up some information on Peter Ruckman one of the founders of this KJVO movement. He believes that the KJV even goesa as far as to correct the Hebrew and Greek itself!!
Heb.4:12 says that Word of God is "alive" and powerful. It is the living word of God. I also believe that. But I don't have to believe that the translation is inspired to come to that conclusion. I believe that Word of God is alive and powerful and has the power to change lives, and through it men are saved, that is born of the Spirit, born into the family of God, and so forth. But that doesn't mean that the KJV is inspired. Inspiration and infallibility are traits that belong only to the original manuscripts. God has preserved his word. Why are you hung up on inspiration? Translations cannot be inspired because God only inspired the actual authors of the Scripture, not any of the translators. To be very precise he inspired their writings. It is their writings that were inspired, and the inspiration doesn't carry through. He used the prophets and the apostles. Study 2Pet.1:19-21.
Your dedication to the KJV is commendable. But God didn't tell us that he preserved his Word in the KJV. He said that he would promise to preserve his word. We know how he preserved it in the Old Testament, with the meticulousness of the scribes, and they way that they copied the Old Testament masoretic texts. But the problem is not so much in the Old Testament. The problem lies in the New Testament; mostly between the critical text vs. the majority text. God said he would preserve his word, but he didn't say how. He didn't say that he would draw a direct link between the KJV and the original writings of Paul and the rest of the apostles. You can't justify that statement. You can't make the assumption that the KJV is the only translation that is "inspired" and/or infallible. It isn't. It isn't inspired and it isn't infallible. No translation is.
By deduction all KJVO assers this. It is the great dilemma of their position which they can find no logical argument for. If the Bible is preserved only in the KJV (an archaic English langauge), then obviously it is not preserved in other languages. The KJVO position doesn't want to fairly look at this position, because, as I have pointed out, most of the translational work all over the world has been done by those who have held to the critical text, not the TR. As was inferred above, certain KJVO would say that one can only be saved through a KJV Bible, so let the rest of the world be damned to Hell. It is a very arrogant position to take, which completely ignores the Great Commission.
I never said anyone had a Bible that agreed with me. You don't know my position apparently. I am saying that people speak different languages. You can't expect to teach all the world Shakespearean English before carrying out the Great Commission. The Great Commission is not taking English into all the world. Since when did that become part of the Great Commisssion. We use the Bibles of the nations available to us, whether or not they are translated from the critical text or the TR. Most Bibles of other nations are translated from the critical text. Are you going to be a missionary to those people and pull the rug from under their feet, undermining their faith, by telling them that that book in their hands that they have faithfullly believed in is not the Word of God. Are you going to try and destroy them by teaching them that the KJV is the only Word of God. Is your pupose as a missionary to destroy or to edify and to win souls to Christ. The purpose of the KJVO is apparently to destroy the lives of others if you think it through.
DHK
Continued:Presuppositionalism and KJV Onlyism
Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by AV, Dec 31, 2005.
Page 3 of 13
-
DHK,
Thanks for your opinions on the various issues you expressed. Most of which are irrelevant, and freefalling into tedium. They are predominantly strawmen and not beginning to address the presuppositional dilemma I started the thread with. I understand the peer pressure to fit into the modernist scientific thought and look relevant, but that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. And If I should please men I would not be the servant of Christ.
If you care to continue, could you please address the situation this thread brings up.
Thanks,
AV -
-
-
1. I don't say anything under peer pressure.
2. I didn't say anything to fit "into modernist scientific thought."
3. It is very slanderous of you to infer that I am a modernist. I suggest you apologize.
4. I am not trying to look relevant; but my position is Biblical.
5. You have accused me of saying and believing that which is "an abomination in the sight of God."
What gives you the right to slander and accuse others of such. Others have been suspended and even banned for such. If you don't know my position then ask. If you are not able to answer objections or the points given then politely concede. You attitude is highly arrogant.
DHK -
DHK,
I did not respond to your opinions because it is becoming tedious. You have not been addressing the issue from the beginning of this thread nor the last thread. You just expressed that you are not familiar even with what I started the thread about, stating:
"State your question in a clear concise mamer without beating around the bush and I will endeavour to answer it for you."
As far as your 'righteous indignation' to my tone. Do you not remember on page 12 of the first thread December 26, 2005 02:03 PM making this remark:
"Is your God so narrow-minded and bigoted that He only speaks to 10% or the world--the English part, and consigns 90% of the world to Hell because they cannot read and understand English, particularly Shakespearean English? My God is not that narrow-minded."
Thanks again,
AV -
-
DHK,
I have tried to connect the dots for you throughout. But since you still have trouble I will try to assist. Nobody is bound to a particular view. I could say, God will provide his word in any language to any people who call upon him. Or English is the universal language of the end times. Or God revived his word according to the faith of God's elect, in these last days to the universal English language. Or any number of other that I cannot now recall. Salvation is based in the faith of the gospel of Christ (1 Cor.15:1-3) not superstitiously having the bible touching ones hand.
Do you care to reinforce the claim that KJV Onlyists worship a false god because of the claim the KJV is the English version representing final authority to the English speaking world? -
God promised to preserve His Word. We can agree on that much, can we not? The question is then where is His Word preserved. Since the different translations differ from each other in shades of meaning, and even the English translations that are translated from the TR differ in places with each other, it is apparent that there is no perfert translation. Humans don't make a translation perfect, because they themselves are not perfect. As I have asked before I ask again:
If I translate the first chapter of John, will it be just as "inspired" as the KJV? Why or why not?
DHK -
I think we have covered enough on the theoretical issues. From now on I would suggest the comparison between KJV and any other version, verse by verse.
-
It was not too many years ago that German was the major language among the educated scientists.
The final authority to the world is not a Bible but God. God will not judge the world according to the Bible they used but according to His judgment.
How does your authority for English speaking people stack up against Heb. 11:6 for the entire world?
Heb. 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." -
(Luk 2:3) And all went to be registered, each to his own city. (MKJV)
and,
Luke 2:3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. (KJV)
Both versions come from the same text (the TR). Why the apparent discrpency? Here it is not the Greek that is in question. It is the translation. There was no taxation at the time of Christ's birth.
DHK -
Actually, apograpow should mean Register, even though its main purpose was taxation.
This is what should be addressed on KJV, which I agree. I already mentioned Kata-Luma is not Inn like Holyday Inn, but a guestroom in a private house, about which so many Bible misunderstand.
These types of vocabulary problems are not a few, not so many, but need elaboration.
The reason why I could not point out this is because, so many people attack KJV on the bases of wrong texts, not the MT-TR. -
DHK,
Apparently you do not need me to argue with you, since you are doing so well with the straw man you insist upon. You are not addressing my actual debate (don't ask me to repeat it, go read the previous posts) and insisting that I believe things I don't. I'll just read your posts as you argue with someone you can hold your own with, yourself.
AV -
DHK -
-
Originally posted by Eliyahu:
From now on I would suggest the comparison between KJV and any other version, verse by verse.Click to expand... -
Well, there are always people who want to use big fancy words to explain a very simple thing.
The thing about the Bible is, that it is about faith. God did not tell us certain things on purpose. We have to take it by faith. Just read the 11th chapter of Hebrews.
There are certain things that we cannot prove. Like where did God come from, where is He, where is heaven, how could you get all those animals in a small boat the size of Noahs ark, etc,etc.
This is where faith comes in. We have to believe the Bible even though sometimes some things don't make sense to us.
Otherwise, we should not call ourselves Christians if we don't believe the Bible means what it says, and says what God means.
Hebrews 11-6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So I believe that the bible is true. Whatever it says happened at a given point in time, i believe to be correct.
I believe the Red sea was parted, and then came back in and drowned Pharoahs army. I believe that the axe of iron floated.
You see, it is not about our understanding, it's about the sovrenty of God. It doesn't matter to me if science can explain it or not
The KJV of the bible is what I prefer to use. If I were Spanish, there would be a version in that language that I would prefer. the same for any other language.
This dicussion about the Bible is one of the most senseless ones I have ever witnessed.
Working for Jesus,
Tam -
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
This dicussion about the Bible is one of the most senseless ones I have ever witnessed.
Working for Jesus,
TamClick to expand...
Thank you for proving my point in "such a senseless discussion."
DHK -
DHK,
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion from what I said, so I will just say no. Don't put words in my mouth.
The perfect is Jesus, when He comes back, your favorite verse will be fulfilled!
Until then we will all continue to use whatever version of the bible that we want to.
Selah,
Tam
Page 3 of 13