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Featured Could Christ Have Sinned? II

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Aaron, Jan 7, 2021.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Could Christ have sinned?

    If Christ could have lied, He could have sinned. But if one believes Paul, it is impossible for God to lie.
     
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Nothing in Him to respond to sin though, as fully God and sinless human!
     
  4. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Wherefore Jesus also,
    that he might sanctify the people
    with his own blood,
    suffered without the gate.
    Hebrews 13:12

    With His own blood
    He suffered.

    He got tired. John 4:6

    He slept. Mark 4:38

    He grew physically, increased in wisdom, and gained spiritual strength. Luke 2:40

    He was obedient to His parents. Luke 2:51


    Most of the posters on both "sides" of the issue agree that our Lord was fully human.


    If He could not sin with no capacity to sin then He was not fully human.

    Many of you disagree with that statement but please consider this:

    For consider him
    that endured such contradiction of sinners
    against himself,
    lest ye be wearied and faint
    in your minds,

    Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,
    striving against sin.
    Hebrews 12:3-4

    For One without the capacity to sin He sure strove extremely hard against it.

    And when he was at the place, he said unto them,
    Pray that ye enter not unto temptation.
    And he was withdrawn from them
    about a stone's cast,
    and kneeled down, and prayed,
    Saying,
    Father,
    if thou be willing,
    remove this cup from me:
    nevertheless not my will.
    but thine,
    be done.

    And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven,
    strengthening him.
    And being in agony
    he prayed more earnestly:
    and his sweat was as it were
    great drops of blood
    falling down to the ground.
    And when he rose up from prayer,
    and was come close to his disciples,
    he found them sleeping for sorrow,
    And he said unto them,
    Why sleep ye?
    rise and pray,
    lest ye enter into temptation.
    Luke 22:40-46

    What was His will that He gave up (Luke 22:42)
    to do the Father's will?
     
    #4 SGO, Jan 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Non sequitur. I could just as easily say if He had no earthly father, then he was not fully human. What other human was born of a virgin? What other human was ever divine?

    He is the incorruptible God. He cannot lie.
     
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  6. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    No sequitter but no answer to the question at the end of the post.
     
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  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    So?
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe the passage speaks to God's righteousness, not His ability.
     
  9. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    So keep sewing if you cannot answer.
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Perhaps the verse requires your acceptance, and not your editing.
     
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  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    As God, yes, but not as man, thus therein lies the possibility.

    Luk_1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

    Mar_14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.​

    Then are the verses (Hebrews 6:18; Mark 14:36; Luke 1:37, see also Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27, etc) in contradiction? No. They are in harmony. Notice, the statements, carefully:

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
    Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
    Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
    Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

    Yes, Christ Jesus took upon Himself the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh (Romans 8:3, etc). Yes, Christ Jesus, as a man, could be tired (Mark 4:38), be hungry (Luke 4:2), be sorrowful (John 11:35), be thirsty (John 19:28), be angry (Mark 3:5), be in pain (John 11:33), and so many other things which pertain to the nature of sinful (fallen) flesh, as Hebrews 2:10,16,17 reveals.

    Yet, none of that is being "tempted". Temptation (testing or tried) is not being led to be "tired", "hungry", "sorrowful", "thirsty", angry", in "pain", and so many other things of the experience of the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh.

    Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

    The devil's temptations to Christ Jesus, was not to be hungry, etc. Jesus was already hungry, being led of the Holy Ghost into the wilderness. The Temptation that came from Satan to Jesus ,was that Jesus might violate God's Character, Law, Kingdom in the slightest way and so sin.

    The very words "being tempted" (being His; vs 18), in connection with those "that are tempted" (us), is found in the previous verse, verse 17, dealing with temptation to "sins". It is the same in Hebrews 4:15.

    We are not tempted to be tired. The Bible says that the spirit is willing but the "flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41). Tiredness, Hunger, Thirst, etc are merely result of existing in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh, and in this fallen world. The real and actual temptation, is to violate God's Character, Law and Kingdom - thus sin.

    1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

    1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.​

    It is no temptation to be hungry, tired, sorrowful, angry, etc. It is temptation to violate a command of God (such idolatry), and so sin against God. Eve was tempted, sinned and fell, by idolatry. Notice, it is "common to man" (ie the nature of mankind), and Jesus was found in the fashion as a "man" (Philippians 2;8).

    It is true, that in Christ Jesus (the last Adam) was no propensity to sin (even a the first man Adam had none), as we now have (since we have already sinned; Romans 3:23). But that is not to say that Christ Jesus was not made fully in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh and tempted to be as us, a sinner (for that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit, as per John 3, etc; for Jesus was born of Mary (flesh, ancestry of fallen seed/flesh of David) of the Holy Ghost (Spirit)). He was made to be sin for us, not made a sinner. Sin is a choice of the will to do or not do as God commands (1 John 3:4), not a state of being.

    When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, what was the devil tempting Jesus to do? Notice, not 'to be', but 'to do'. It is not temptation to be "hungered", or "thirsty", etc.

    Mat_4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    Luk_4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.​

    If we say that the devil was tempting Jesus to be hungry, then it implicates God, for it was the Holy Ghost that led Jesus into the wilderness and to be hungry. So, while it is true that "God" cannot be tempted, "man" can be, even as James states clearly (James 1:13-14). Jesus was "tempted" not as "God", but as "man". This was the trial.
     
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  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    He would have had to shed His divinity, which is impossible. 2 Timothy 2:13
     
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  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    2 Tim. 2:13 doesn't say anything about what you linked it to (out of context). I also never said that Jesus "shed His divinity". I said that Jesus was tempted in His humanity to sin, not His divinity. Just as it is impossible for Deity to sink and die, but not for humanity to do so.

    This verse (in context):

    2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.​

    ... is speaking about the promise of God (the Father) in Christ Jesus (the Son) to raise us from the dead if we believe, and that He is faithful to that promise (in other words His word is true, whether we believe it or not).

    2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
    2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
    2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
    2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.​

    The promise of eternal life and the resurrection exists with Christ Jesus, even if we choose to not believe it (and so not partake in it). God, even also Jesus, is faithful to the promise and will not turn back from it, having paid the price to redeem all who will take of it.

    The text you raised has nothing to do with the topic of the OP.
     
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No.
     
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  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I assume then that, he also could not die. Exactly how has your soul been atoned, for? Exactly how have you been made righteous?

    He (The Son) could have sinned, in not having learned the obedience unto death <see Heb 5:7,8), even the death of the cross <see Phil 2:8 Not my will but thine.

    Acts 13:34 by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 'And that He did raise him up out of the dead, no more to return to corruption, he hath said thus -- I will give to you the faithful kindnesses of David;

    and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

    Relative to post 13 of which I agree.

    2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:19
    And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:31,32

    Was the Son of the Highest (what?) the seed of David? Was he God with us? Methinks so.
     
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  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The text I raised has to do with your errors.

    In order for Christ to be 'fully human' as you conceive of His humanity, and therefore corruptible, He would have stop being Divine. He would have to stop being the incorruptible God, but He cannot deny himself.

    In other words, you're full of fertilizer.
     
    #16 Aaron, Jan 8, 2021
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  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Why make assumptions. Go with what we're told...it was not possible that he should be holden of death. Acts 2:24
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    As to His temptation--His testing--many have the mistaken notion that He has to be a partaker of our corruptibility, because we equate our bent to sinning as the thing that makes us subject to temptation, when, in reality, our bent to sinning is just our corruption.

    The law tests. That's what it does. It judges the comers thereto as either worthy or unworthy. It pronounces blessing on those that would obey it, and a curse upon those who would break it.

    You and I come to the law, and it says, unworthy cursed wretches.

    Christ comes to the law, and it says, Thou art worthy. Blessed art Thou.

    The Incarnation is a mystery. You're not going to wrap your head around how the infinite God was made weak enough to enter our world for the suffering of death, yet retain His divinity in full. You're just not. So stop arguing with God.

    Let me bring it a little closer home. Look at what John said about those who are born again. 1 John 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Learn what that means before painting a corrupt picture of our Lord.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I was thinking the same of you, brother.

    It being impossible for God to lie can be taken two ways. It may mean that God is bound by moral laws and lacks the ability to lie. Or it may mean that it is impossible that God will lie, an affirmation of Scripture (the faith of the OT in the of God's righteousness) and indication of Hod's holy nature.

    I believe the latter is correct because Scripture and not the feelings of men should be used to interpret Scripture.

    It is impossible for God to lie. We do not have to subject God to an external power (a moral code) or diminish God's ability to accept the passage as it is written.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    God is the source of the moral law, not its subject. God cannot lie, because He is the Truth. If God could, in some future moment* change His mind, if it were possible for Him to deny Himself, to be corrupted, then you have no real basis for your faith.

    Accept it as it is written, because it is the truth. God cannot deny Himself. He is immutable. Not because He promised not to change His mind, but because He cannot.

    *God is eternal, and in Heaven there is no past or future as we think of them. It is past, present, and future simultaneously existing as now.
     
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