Quoting Eric B,
"So adding pagan days is OK; just as long as you keep God's days too? SDA's have taught that SUNDAY in itself is the mark of the beast; not just not keeping Saturday.If Sunday is OK, now; then a lot of SDA writings (Including EG White) are wrong.And if the whole proof of the 7th day is that "man needs rest"; then to get that rest on Sunday after spending all sabbath working in the Church; how is he really different than someone who does any other work on Saturday and rests on Sunday, or argues "just one day in 7 is fine"? Once again; you claim these things are "OK"; but God in the Law has not authorized it."
Eric, you're absolutely right! I wonder if Bob himself can't see what you have inferred from his arguments?
Said Bob, "... the Question is "What is Christ's command regarding HIS Holy Day" and did I honor THAT - or man's tradition INSTEAD?"
In the first place: if I attend church on Sunday it does break the 4th commandment because I honor man's tradition - whether I did it "INSTEAD" of worshipping on the Sabbath the Day God intended and appointed to that end, or not.
In the second place, says Bobn, "It is not sin to observe a tradition in ADDITION to the Word of God". Now what was the Pharisees' corruption of the Fourth Commandment then, not sin? And if even our best and holiest works within the Law are abominable to God if not in Christ Jesus, then what abbout our o so pious "additions"?
D L Moody on 10 Commandments and Sabbath
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Mar 15, 2005.
Page 3 of 4
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Quoting BobRyan,
"Moody is the one making that argument. In his case it works SINCE the day he picks to honor and rest on - IS IN FACT the Lord's own Day - the "Sabbath of the Lord thy God""
Moody does not pick the Sabbath "to honour it" nor "to rest on", as I have written before on this thread. He ridicules the principle the Sabbath only is God's Day of Worship-Rest. Bob misunaderstands Moody; he doesn't see Moody's true intentions. Moody, like about every Sunday-Sabbatharian, when talking 'Sabbath', talks falsely. -
The church TODAY holds worship services on Sunday (campeetings, evangelistic meetings etc)
The church leaders and church members often attend NON-SDA churches on Sunday.
You are simply not correct as you stand on the outside looking in on how SDAs teach this subject.
It is NOT a problem with CHURCH ATTENDANCE or even WORSHIP services held on Sunday. That is no more "Breaking Sabbath" than having prayer meeting on Wednesday!
the Question is "What is Christ's command regarding HIS Holy Day" and did I honor THAT - or man's tradition INSTEAD?"
Hey! I like that guy! What a great quote!
Clearly you are just "making stuff up".
It is not sin to observe a tradition in ADDITION to the Word of God".
Clearly that was a man-made tradition. But NOT walking more than that arbitrarily set distance did not BREAK Sabbath -- as it turns out.
But in this case (removing the obfuscation from your argument) -- the REAL point is NOT something ELSE you restrict on Christ's Holy day - rather it is SOMETHING ELSE that you do on some OTHER DAY as if THAT could stop you from honoring the 7th day! Your logic has run aground.
In Christ,
Bob -
(I don't have a video of all the ways he honored that day).
The fact that HE is doing on the REAL Sabbath what he thinks others should be doing on whatever day in 7 THEY CHOOSE means that in his own life HE is actually keeping Sabbath to the extent that he knows to keep it.
He just does not think the selection of the Sabbath DAY for each person should be left up to God.
But other than that - he makes the case for paying attention to the Sabbath commandment as many Sabbath keepers would do.
In Christ,
Bob -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Quoting BobRyan,
"Are you saying that Christ rose on the Seventh-day of the week and the Bible simply forgets to mention it or make the point explicitly?"
I can't believe my eyes! You want to tell me it now to you for the first time dawns?
"the Bible simply forgets to mention it or make the point explicitly?" The Bible fore-tells it already in genesis 2, and confirms it in Exodus 20, and reinforces it agin in Deuteronomy 5, and dramatically illustrates it in 2K11 and 2Chr22, then by the mouth of the prophets trumpets it into the future, and in the end in Christ the Bible makes it true in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead - that God on the Seventh Day of the week of which He "THUS CONCERNING SPAKE", finished "ALL the works of God" - INCLUDING His creation, and sweeping it with, and through, and out of death and oblivion through and in Jesus Christ "WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD". There scarsely could be a theme in the whole of the Bible that does not "PROCLAIM" that Jesus WOULD, and in fact DID, rise, from the dead, "IN SABBATH'S-TIME IN THE FULNES OF DAY THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK BEFORE" - Matthew 28:1. -
I can't believe my eyes! You want to tell me it now to you for the first time dawns?
Yes - regrettably - I have not noticed that "detail" in your argument until this very day.
In Christ,
Bob -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Quoting BobRyan,
"I see the Bible saying that Christ RESTED on the 7th day in Gen 2:3 AND RESTED on the 7th day on Passion Week. He rose from the dead on the first day of the week. "
Where do you see in your Bible (even) that Christ RESTED on the Seventh Day (Sabbath) on Passion Week?
I pay you every cent I have in the bank for presenting that text to me IF by "rested" you mean 'being dead' and 'in the grave'. Or better, I'll pay you with something of worth far more than money, and admit to and accept and embrace your Sabbath views. But, I'll show you, free of charge, that Christ in truth DID rest on the Seventh Day "Sabbath" MEANING with "rest" that God raised Christ from the dead. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
-
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Quoting BobRyan,
"that "detail" in your argument"
'That detail' is the gross total of my argument, the only, the all of it, and infinitely more, and greater, and bigger, and, SWEETER! -
How can that be missed?
In Christ,
Bob -
I believe that the "New Testament" church celebrates the Sabbath as Sunday because we celebrate the Risen Christ Jesus, the Living Christ, who rose on the third day, Sunday.
-
Certainly the NT authors - the Gospel writers -- writing decades AFTER the cross keep talking about "The third day" Christ is raised - and keep pointing out that "the first day of the week - week-day-1" is "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised.
If in fact this was a Saturday-Sabbath resurrection and the main point was to redefine Sabbath as "The Resurrection day" then the NT authors completely missed that emphasis.
Notice that "recasting" The PASSOVER as the Christ-event IS done explicitly in the NT.
1Cor 5 "CHrist our Passover has been sacririces".
John 1 "The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world".
Heb 10 "The blood of animals could never take away sins... Christ put a stop to sacrifices... by his ONE sacrifice ONCE for all".
They MAKE the point loud - clear and repeatedly.
It seems "odd" that IF they were ALSO supposed to be making a point about Sabbath ALSO being "recast" as the "resurrection event" -- they failed to do so.
In Christ,
Bob -
If they don't have to physically rest; then the argument about "God rested on the 7th day, so so must we FOR ALL TIME on THAT DAY ONLY" is apparently not valid either. "REST" and "NOT WORK" must also have a SPIRITUAL application; which is what the commandment is REALLY about.
Give it up; Moody is NOT a 7th day sabbathkeeper.
But then even in the MURDER command; some things HAVE been removed! For each command came with PENALTIES for breaking it. The penalty for murder was death. While the state is free to enforece that or not; still; as a Church body; we do not. We are no longer in the NATION if Israel. The 10 Commandments were the CIVIL LAW of the land (THAT was their significance as a 10 point code inside the Ark of the Covenant); but they are no longer, as God no longer has a physical nation on the earth.
Likewise, the spiritual command to rest in God was just as valid in the OT as well. But just like the people focused on the LETTER of the murder or lust commands, and missed the spirit; they also focused on the letter of the sabbath command and missed its spirit, and THIS is what Heb.4 is talking about when it says they would still not "enter His rest" even though they "kept" a literal day; because they were trusting in their works to justify them! So the Law's being MAGNIFIED means that the spiritual intent of it; which was downplayed in favor of the letter in the OT, is now emphasized; meaning that SOME of the letter is now downplayed; or annilled; while SOME does still carry on as part of the true spiritual application.
This is where you jump the track. You think "commandments" means "the OT Law"; but then you don't keep all of that. And since it was by "God's Word" that both the OT ad NT commandments were given; then to say one is nailed to the Cross and replaced with the other is not nailing "GOD'S WORD" to the Cross. God's Word still stands, and He is free to rescind something He earlier commanded.
So THIS is how the sabbath command is MAGNIFIED! And yes; God always expected that, even in the OT; but most of the people back then, focusing on the LETTER did not get it. They did not have the Spirit, and the commandments "written on their hearts" for one thing.
-
Christ said
Matt 28:1
1(A)Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, (B)Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
Eric said --
Having challenged His ruling on Sabbath - you then go on to expand your own made-up rule to now apply to KEEPING Sabbath when someone is actually preaching on Sunday and actually KEEPING Sabbath.
It is only when your choice opposes Christ the Creator's Choice that you are actually in violation.
So if you CHOOSE to not commit adultery then you are CHOOSING what Christ chose. It is only when you CHOOSE against it that you are in violation.
Having said - that I do agree with you that his idea that "man can just make up anything he wants as long as it is one day in seven" is an "edit" of the 4th commandment that is not supported in the text of his discussion of the Ten Commandments and it not supported in scripture.
In Christ,
Bob -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob said
No need to worry. Attending church on Sunday is not in any of (the SDA 27 Doctrinal statements) accepted by the Church.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said - it is not a position the church takes and even Ellen White argues for church attendance on Sunday AND we have been doing it recently over this month of March in North America just because of an evangelistic program that has been going on - on Sunday.
Preaching - worship, etc that we do not consider to be violating the command to worship and rest on Christ the Creator's Sabbath.
In Christ,
Bob -
What time zone does Christ "choose" for his sabbath?
-
Moody's argument is that Sabbath is first observed by mankind in Eden -
Moody's argument that the scope/domain for Sabbath is all mankind and that Christians should still be keeping it.
Moody's argument against those who want to nail Christ's Word to the cross - is that Paul said "our faith ESTABLISHES the LAW of God" rather than abolishing it.
These are the same points I have been making.
Moody also argues that the commandment is "editable" so that we can pick whatever day we like - something you and I both think he is wrong to say.
In Christ,
Bob -
Saying you can switch them up between resting and worship service is your own rule; and I'm shocked that you're that liberal about it!
-
Moody said
Eric said --
Eric says -- "He (Moody) did not choose it (Christs Sabbath - the Seventh-day of the week) as Christ's day"
Eric has turned the statement in response so as to obfuscate the dialog -- speaking of it AS IF this is still ON SUBJECT and a logical response to CHRIST the Creator selecting THE SEVENTH day as THE Sabbath and Moody "in his OWN quote above" saying that HE SELECTS THAT SAME DAY?
Obviously having both of them select THE SAME Day for Sabbath -- is not a violation of Sabbath.
But Eric's misdirection seeks to avoid the point -- though the point itself is obvious to all.
I fully agree that IF Moody did not feel constrained (by HIS Work on Sunday) to pick CHRIST's Day - (The actual Seventh-day of the week) - he would surely EDIT The commandment and apply IT to man's day - the day of tradition, the FIRST day -- in his own case.
In Christ,
Bob -
Moody said
One may choose to debate Moody on that point - as Eric has been doing so far -- but the point is clear MOODY claimed that HE was NOT keeping Sunday as the Sabbath and HE claimed HE was keeping the ACTUAL seventh-day as the Sabbath!
So even if you don't like Moody's statement - it is clear what HIS VIEW is.
HE also thinks the day was FIRST observed BY MANKIND in EDEN.
HE ALSO thinks the Ten Commandmenst (ALL TEN OF THEM) STILL apply today.
When HE quotes Rom 3:31 "Do we then MAKE VOID the command of God - GOD FORBID we ESTABLISH THE LAW of God" he gives that text the SAME meaning that I do!
I find that "instructive".
In Christ,
Bob
Page 3 of 4